Hard to follow you gyus when genetic is concerned, specially after a hard day
Will read the recent posts again tomorroow, will see if I can understand all that
Anyway, thanks a lot to all of you.
In the meantime, here go a few more pics of my kakarikis, maybe these new pics can help to ID their mutation.
Regards,
Dolf
IMG_1630-resized-resized.jpg
Description:
The female:
Filesize:
62.14 KB
Viewed:
179 Time(s)
IMG_1632-resized-resized.jpg
Description:
Both, female on top, male below:
Filesize:
83.58 KB
Viewed:
173 Time(s)
IMG_1634-resized-resized.jpg
Description:
Both, male on front, female behind; here we can clearly see both have red eyes:
Filesize:
78.73 KB
Viewed:
181 Time(s)
IMG_1633-resized-resized.jpg
Description:
Both again, female on left, male on right; the size difference seems pretty obvious here:
Observation of our wilds, there is what appears a natural variation in the iris colour from red down to a almost orange.
Interesting point Steps. I always viewed an orange iris as a remain of hybridisation in earlier generations.
I used to suspect the same...
After observing many yellow (with orange crowns) and red (red crown with yellow in it) hybrids...pure yellows and pure reds....
There is slight variation in in the pures, thu still different between the 2 species...
and hybrids seem to be anywhere in the overall spectrum. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Dolf, your birds are definitely what we call the'Goldcheck' or 'Golden yellow'. These birds are actually a combination of pied mutations and the amount of piedness can range to 100%.
They have dark eyes and no vissible iris. But sometimes the eyes appear wine red, like yours. It means that there are other mutations involved like Lutino, Fallow or Cinnamon.
Funny, on another Forum I was told (by a Belgian breeder girl, by the way) that the 'Goldcheck' or 'Golden yellow' had no red at all below the wings, and also that those are pretty rare!
And another Belgian breeder guy told me that because of the color of both birds feet (skin color) and nails (bone color), they should be Lutino!
Hi Dolf, there are a lot of contradictions told on the net. Especially in Europe. People copy opinions of others without checking if it is correct. That is why I started to do my own research. There is still much to learn about the mutations.
No matter what mutation it is, all Redfronteds have red spots underneath the wings. The Goldcheck is the most common in Europe.
The most important difference with the Lutino is the color of the eye.
Hi Dolf, there are a lot of contradictions told on the net.
Indeed
About your Lutino, at least my male looks pretty much like yours. He seems to be in an outdoors aviary, so I guess the pic was taken without using the flash, right?
Beautiful Kakariki by the way
I guess I'll have to wait until they breed and see how their chicks look like, in order to figure what real mutation these two are.
In fact when looking at them in their cage (one of these days when they will feel more comfortable in their new home I'll take each one of them in my hands to better check the eyes color) their eyes don't look red, at least not that red in some flags, but they also don't look black. It's possible, like another member mentioned before, that the flash of the camera makes their eys look so red.
Anyway, one of my cockatiels is a Lutino. When I look at him on his cage, his eyes don't look flag red, but he has red eyes.
There are two topics on this thread i.e. mutations and feather loss plucking. I would like to return to the feather issue. I have only ever had one Kakariki female that clearly plucked her feathers and lined her nest with them. She would pluck from the same area (chest) and each day the plucked area would be larger than the previous. Within a few weeks of the chicks leaving the nest, she would have perfect feathers again.
We do however have a problem here in South Africa with kakariki losing feathers and looking terrible. The problem is effecting the desirability of kakariki as pets or aviairy birds as they become soo scruffy and ugly. Virtually any bird older than about six months that sits in a pet shop for a few months starts to loose feathers. Most of my birds look horrible in the summer and when breeding and it is certainly not a normal moult.
Currently only two out my 30 birds look bad. The others are all in perfect feather but it is winter now. A few months ago roughly half of the same birds had from 20% to 50% feather loss. My birds get a good and varied diet and plenty of exercise.
I no longer keep kakariki in suspended aviaries. Some pairs are in 2.5m high by 2m long by 1m wide aviairies and I have a colony in a 2.2m high by 5.5m long by 2.4m wide aviary.
I have not discovered a feather cure after eight years of kakariki keeping and trying various diets and supplements. I have also tried to source young birds from as many different sources as possible.
So it seems that only in Australia and New Zealand, female kakarikis don't loose or pluck their feathers, but the problem seems to exist in Europe and according to what you say, also in South Africa.
All breeders I've talked to here in Portugal say the same thing you also mention:
Quote:
We do however have a problem... with kakariki losing feathers and looking terrible. The problem is effecting the desirability of kakariki as pets or aviairy birds as they become soo scruffy and ugly.
In fact it's a bird not many people have here, and not many breeders are interested in, because of that. It seems we never see kakarikis in exhibitions either because of that same reason!
I also talk with other European breeders, French, Belgian, Dutch, and with only a couple of exceptions, they all say they have a feathers loosing problem during the breeding season.
Quote:
A few months ago roughly half of the same birds had from 20% to 50% feather loss.
That matches the poor shape the mother of my male was when I saw it, she really looked terrible!
And the breeder from whom I got my male, is a man who has more than 30 years experience with all kind of psittacide birds breeding, so I'm pretty sure he knows what's the best diet for them, the best conditions, etc.
I have my couple indoors so obviously (and unfortunately) I can't keep them in huge aviaries like yours
Anyway, right now, no nest as I don't intend to have them breeding before they are 1 year old (January-February, so the nest probably only in March) so they both look beautiful for the moment, and no feathers loosing
This is a pair, from memory they where on their consecitive 2 or 3rd batch of eggs...
Notice a slight thining of feathers on the brest of the female (left)
Also notice my Avatar to the left, thats a yellow crown, again no issues with feather loss
Maybe it has something to do with nesting material?
We use about 50mm wood turnings, more like the swath from a metal lathe than woos shavinings....then forest floor compost, about 10mm...
This is all dampened with 50/50 vinigar and water.
It is strange to have such a dramativc differebce between neglable and dramatic loss. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Your female from your picture, as well as the one from your avatar, both are in a fantastic condition compared to those with the loosing feathers problem I've seen.
If you didn't tell I would never imagine they are/were breeding!
They simply look in perfect condition.
Well, I don't know if it has to do with the nest materials, as different breeders use different materials.
Anyway, I must admit I never heard or read about dampening the nest materials, no matter which ones, with 50% water and 50% vinigar!
I know some breeders, including for cockatiels, use to damp the nest materials, but I was also told with our weather here (unless the breeding happens in the summer, July/August, when it's quite dry) we don't really need to do that (for cockatiels). Some people use turf (I guess it's what you call "forest floor compost", or at least pretty similar, right?) mixed with some wood shavings.
I usually use for my birds some woodchips (usually used as a kind of litter for all pets, rabbits, etc), and recently I started using for my rosellas, "broken beech wood", 100% natural, dried and purified wood chippings.
I don't know, the nest material could be a reason (I'll try asking to 1 person whose birds don't pluck themselves which materials she uses) but I don't think it would be the main reason for this behavior.
Today another friend who also has kakarikis told me that in his case, the male usually looses more feathers than the female during the breeding season!
Anyway, could you please post a couple of pictures of the materials you use for the nests?
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "woos shavinings"! Unless you meant "woods shavings".
In practical therms what's the difference between those wood turnings you use, that look "more like the swath from a metal lathe than woos shavinings"? The size of the chippings?
Damping with vinegar....thats just when the material is 1st put in the nesting boxes...
Forest floor stuff...thats the 1/2 rotted leaves, small sticks...not the fully composted dirt..
As far as the reason being nesting materials....Im just stabbing in the dark for a reason..tossing the idea around...
The type of wood is Rimu and/or Kauri, both NZ native timbers, and the forest floor mulch is from the NZ native bush....
NZ soils are low in Selinium and iodine, hence so are are friut and veggies, maybe that has some influence...????
Or maybe because we feed increased levels of protien coming upto and during breeding? Chop bones, diced lean leftover steak/chicken from the table????
I have seen where Kakariki in NZ do get scruffy, thu now where as much as you guys describle....and Im more or less 'out on my own' with other breeders doing so....
They point out breeders who have lost flights of birds due to old meat going off...and do not do it....
But have yet to actually meet a breeders who has actually lost birds because of it??? I supoose if one feeds far more than what they eat, one could run into problems, hence why we dice into mouthful sizes...
Just tossing ideas around...I have know real idea why. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Damping with vinegar....thats just when the material is 1st put in the nesting boxes...
So, you damp the materials once they are already in the nest (if so how you do it, by spraying the nest materials?), or you do it before, let dry (or not) and then put the materials in the nest?
Quote:
Forest floor stuff...thats the 1/2 rotted leaves, small sticks...not the fully composted dirt..
I see. But given the composition of NZ soils (low in Selinium and iodine, as you mention) I suppose it would be hard to find the same somewhere else.
I guess 100% natural turf, which some breeders use, might do the same effect, but it would be necessary to check the composition.
Quote:
NZ soils are low in Selinium and iodine, hence so are are friut and veggies, maybe that has some influence...????
I guess it's a possibility.
Quote:
As far as the reason being nesting materials....Im just stabbing in the dark for a reason..tossing the idea around...
Right, I understand.
So far as I know no one came out, here or anywhere else that I might know, with the ultimate explanation, so every ideas, comparision of different conditions from different breeders, suggestions, the whole thing is to the debate, I suppose it's enlightening for us all trying to figure out why this happens. So many thanks for your rich suggestions and ideas.
Quote:
Or maybe because we feed increased levels of protien coming upto and during breeding? Chop bones, diced lean leftover steak/chicken from the table????
Well, as animal protein, some breeders here give their birds a certain type of worms (I believe it's flour worms, but I'm not sure; it's called "tenebrio molitor") as animal protein.
I'm breeding myself a few of these worms, but so far haven't tried to offer them to my kakarikis.
All I know is that my other birds (cockatiels, rosellas) don't seem to eat it.
I'll try giving some to my kakarikis, will see if they like it.
Anyway, by "chop bones", you mean from mutton chops or porc chops?
How much per bird, per day, from that and those steak/chicken leftover?
The fact you give meat to your birds wouldn't develop or even increase cannibalism?
I ask because I know some breeders complain that their birds kill and actually eat all their chicks. Notice that I have no idea at all if these breeders give meat to their birds. It's even possible that these acts of cannibalism only happen for lack of animal protein, such as meat!
Quote:
Just tossing ideas around...I have know real idea why.
And I thank you very much for that, bringing your expert opinions, it might be very helpful for us all to try to understand why this happens.
So, you damp the materials once they are already in the nest (if so how you do it, by spraying the nest materials?),
I spread out on newspaper asnd spray, then put in the nesting boxes, the nesting boxes are also sprayed before use, as are all the avaiies every week or so....
Once the nesting boxes are in us the insides dont get sprayed again...
Meat/Protien...kakariki will spend hours on the foest floor scratching away...and what is there? grubs, insects, worms...all REAL HIGH Proten/iron stuff, then they hang out in the tress picking up a few berries flowers....thats vermented sugars, alcohol, vinegar and citric acid to absorb the protien and iron....
Vitimines /minerial etc etc all need other vitimine minterial etc to be able to be absorbed into the body....So instead of getting technical, we just give everything on a regular basis.
Quote:
I see. But given the composition of NZ soils (low in Selinium and iodine, as you mention) I suppose it would be hard to find the same somewhere else.
NZ varies from Volcanic, salty, rock, clay, sand from one end of the country to the other...
Quote:
All I know is that my other birds (cockatiels, rosellas) don't seem to eat it. (meat)
I'll try giving some to my kakarikis, will see if they like it.
We feed to all parrots, kings, crimsons, burkes, turqs, quail, the red kakariki eat the most, then the yellow kakariki and the rest .....
15 kakariki will demolish a large hand full of fine diced lean meat in about an hr...plus a heap good handful of apple over a few more hrs. every 2 to 4 days....maybe more. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
NZ varies from Volcanic, salty, rock, clay, sand from one end of the country to the other...
Yes, I know (never visited but many years ago had a girlfriend from Christchurch, and then I watched the "Lord of the Rings" too ), but I was talking about the forest soils.
Quote:
We feed to all parrots, kings, crimsons, burkes, turqs, quail, the red kakariki eat the most, then the yellow kakariki and the rest .....
15 kakariki will demolish a large hand full of fine diced lean meat in about an hr...plus a heap good handful of apple over a few more hrs. every 2 to 4 days....maybe more.
I see. Well, will have to try that.
Will also have to see how they accept living worms, the tenebrio molitor I mentioned before, it seems it contains lots of animal protein.
One product that has been mentioned in a Portuguese Forum about birds where I also post, is spirulina. It seems it's very rich.
All times are GMT + 13 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3Next
Page 2 of 3
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
Words
Forum FAQ
Search
Log in/Register
to the debate, I suppose it's enlightening for us all trying to figure out why this happens. So many thanks for your rich suggestions and ideas.
), but I was talking about the forest soils.
