Why Not Cross Breed Species?

Kiwi-And-Dolly · Snr Member Joined: Jan 17, 2008 Posts: 30

Hi Everyone,
im new here and i would just like to ask why are you not supposed to breed yellowfronted kakarikis with redfronted? and why aren't you supposed to breed there offspring?

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

Because they are 2 different species.. they are an both endangered species, far more so than offical figures,
Crossing them creates hybrids, that once get well established in breeding line cant be removed for many generations over decades of very intensive specialised breeding.
Unfortunately most of the capitive birds around the world, and in many countries All are now hybrids to varing degrees.
Yellow/red crosses have been experimented with to get new mutations, and for many yrs to establish if the orange crown was a separate specis or a hybrid
All that has been achieved in the last 80 to 100yrs by crossing, is a mix of feathers of varing degrees in the crown...and DNA estblished about 10 yrs ago what private breeders had been saying for over 100yrs..the orange is a separate species.

naughtyniike · Snr Member Joined: Sep 22, 2007 Posts: 77

do they not breed together in the wild?

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

It seems not, In the wild one species tend to habitat the upper forrest and the other the lower forest.
also we have found when mixed several in the same flight they relate in the same manner as if one mixes kakariki with burkes crimsons quail etc, and other species, they get along ok bt dont interact as they do with their own species.
From this I conclude to cross the species one would have to force the cross isolating ...under these circumstance I do not know how readly they then mate.

Kiwi-And-Dolly · Snr Member Joined: Jan 17, 2008 Posts: 30

so are you aloud to have them in the same aviary or would they hybrid. or can you have them in the same aviary if you have no nest boxes hanging up in the aviary?

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

In NZ where Dept of Conservation permits are required to hold native species...thu many of the regulations are rather vague and open to interpretationn, mixing of species is not permitted in the same flight.

Stumbler · Snr Member Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 50

It is not a good idea to cross the Yellow and Red Fronted, though a fertile Hybrid will be produced, as Steps mentioned they are two different species Shame on you

; In the wild they have slightly different habitat and food requirements.

There are plenty of naturally occurring Hybrid Kakariki in the wild, there was some posted video of birds on Islands around stewart Island that looked suspiciously crowned with mucky colours. Shocked

I have a few photos of wild Hybrids.

DoC used to eradicate Hybrids on islands near the Cathams, they stopped this as most of the population had a degree of hybridisation and it would have meant near annihilation of the population.
Not sure how things will go for areas in NZ where DoC are releasing a handful of Orange Fronted birds on Islands that are near to larger populations of the fairly common Yellow Fronted Rolling Eyes

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

I despute the claim that there are plenty of naturally occuring hybrids in the wild..
mix flocksyellows and reds in a flight and they do cross,]
But will if forced with just 1 male 1 female

As I have mentioned numerous time before, in NZ there are a great number of hybrids in captivity...no market, and for at least 50 yrs these have been released into the wild!!!
DoC up to a couple yrs ago and still most DoC ppl would not reconise a hybrid if it was in their hand...The kakariki released on TiriTiri by DoC a few yrs ago...they where hybrids, hence DoC doesnt use these to release else where...BUT Private breeders told thenm they where hybrid before releasing...as usual, As far as DoC is concerned, private breeders know squat...so DoC screws up

If they did hybridise easy in the wild, there would be no pure breed existing over the last several 10s of 1000s of yrs..

Peter · Foundation Member Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 599

What about the descriptions of Walter L. Buller?

This one is from his 'On the Ornithology of New Zealand' Volume 7, 1874
Platycercus auriceps, Kuhl.—Yellow-fronted Parrakeet.
The small red-fronted Parrakeet, supposed by Mr. Bills to be a new species, is nothing but a variety of Platycercus auriceps, with the yellow vertex deeply stained, or rather mixed with red. Mr. Bills states that he found three of these among 600 specimens taken, and one of these marked “male” is in the Canterbury Museum.

Source:
http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/volume/rsnz_07/rsnz_07_00_002150.html

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

I think this refers to the Orange kakariki articules in forms and news on the front page of the web site.
It is my understanding that it id the Bullier paper that DoC used as reference right up to only a few yrs back maintaining it was a hybrid..
Even in the face of extensive breeding hybridisation to create this "hybrid" by private breeders unsuccessfully for a 100 yrs...who maintained it was a separate species.
Even so, In the end, DoC then ordered the confiscation and destruction of these large flocks of genuine species in capitivity...
Article by Rosemary Lowe in the Download section here
http://www.kakariki.net/downloads/parrotmag.pdf
Only to find after DNA testing a year or so later confirmed the orange as a separate species...
Then declare orange as one of the most endangered and rare species of bird in the world.
Even here the recovery program has not been anywhere near as successful as it should be, (threads in the DoC section of these forums) and at the start almost disastrous as the Aussie Gov Norfolk kakariki (news item front page)
With all due respect to those DoC ppl at grass roots, again advice and involvement of highly experienced kakariki breeders was not obtained and ignored...The only official aid was the Red kakariki I donated to them to DoC for use as surrogate parents....I have never even had the courtesy of reply as to progress or how it went.

Then there is the highly endangered Antipodes kakariki...
most of the wild population has hybridised with the Red due to isolation and high numbers of reds and very low numbers of Antipodes.
There are several pairs (about 5 I think) in captivity which are believed to be pure , held as a backup. BUT these are not allowed to be breed other than to maintain replacement of a parent...other than that eggs/chicks must be destroyed
I have observed one of these pairs in captivity. They look more like a conjour in appearance and size but no crown or nose band..it is only when the call one realises they are a kakariki.
Basically if a fire went thru the island of the wilds, considering the dry conditions of weather etc the remote isolation of the island, this is a very high possibility. If this or similar disaster happened again DoC would have on their hand another species of kakariki as the rarest bird in the world
Yet there responsible and knowledgeable are breeders in NZ and Australia (Norfolk kakariki) who are basically set up and will control breed these species voluntarily. DoC maintains it doesnt the money to do this, and even if they did, we would still do it at no cost.
The other argument DoC uses is Disases...the 12 birds I donated to DoC where individually extensively tested at Massey University at approx $1200 each...everyone of them passed with flying colours.

The Reds and yellow species in the wild in the South Island of NZ have in the last Few months been very quietly declared by DoC as "the red-crowned (C. novaezelandiae) is all but extinct on the mainland, " and the yellow is not much better off. In reality in the North Island basically the same situation exists.
Of these 2 species in captivity there are still hybrids and from what I can establish there could be as low as only 2 to 3 blood lines left nationally.

The NZ and Australian situation for kakariki for all species is now in a highly critical and at risk situation because of Government mismanagement.
I can see in the not to long a future, If the Government doesnt pull finger now, the survival of kakariki as a species may very well rely on questionable wild private stocks from around the world.

YES it is important here and around the world to not to hybridise kakariki species or they will be gone within the next 10yrs.

Generally when ppl put such issues forward they exaduate the situation, unfortunately I am unable to to do this here...the situation with kakariki has now gone well past being able to do so.