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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Difference between Dominant Pied and Recessive Pied
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Difference between Dominant Pied and Recessive Pied
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southy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:27 pm    Post subject: Difference between Dominant Pied and Recessive Pied

Hi Folks!
I'm a novice at the whole biology of birds (any sort of biology in fact!), and I'm hoping someone can give me a basic definition of Dominant Pied and Recessive pied. If I had one of each of the birds in front of me, what differences could/would/should I see, if any?
Along the same lines, Black Eyed Clear ... I know what they look like, but how do you know if you've got a Split Black Eyed Clear? Would I only know by believing the person who I've bought it from? If I had a Split Black Eyed Clear (cock bird), and wanted to pair it with something, what would be a good mutation to put it with (to get nice pied green-yellow babies!). Would the young of a Split Black Eyed Clear be classed as a split BEC also? Or would it depend on the Hen Bird?
Confused you all yet? I'm only getting started!!!!
Thanks in advance for any info!
Cheers, duno
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    Peter
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    PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Difference between Dominant Pied and Recessive Pied

    southy wrote:

    I'm a novice at the whole biology of birds (any sort of biology in fact!), and I'm hoping someone can give me a basic definition of Dominant Pied and Recessive pied. If I had one of each of the birds in front of me, what differences could/would/should I see, if any?


    The main difference are the eyes. Dominant pieds have always normal eyes. Recessice pieds have dark eyes.
    The amount of pied in dominant pieds varies from 0-50% with some exceptions of 70%. Recessive pieds have always more than 80%.

    southy wrote:

    Along the same lines, Black Eyed Clear ... I know what they look like, but how do you know if you've got a Split Black Eyed Clear? Would I only know by believing the person who I've bought it from? If I had a Split Black Eyed Clear (cock bird), and wanted to pair it with something, what would be a good mutation to put it with (to get nice pied green-yellow babies!). Would the young of a Split Black Eyed Clear be classed as a split BEC also? Or would it depend on the Hen Bird?

    For me the name 'Black eyed clear' is still confusing. I suppose it is the same as what we in Europe call the Goldcheck, a 100% pied bird. This a combination of the dominant and recessive pied. I know that there is also a BEC in Redrumps, but this is a recessive mutation. To avoid confusion, it is (in my opinion) better to talk about dominant pied recessive pied.
    In case of the redrumps it is possible to have split birds. In case of the Kakariki it can't be.
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    wyndara
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    PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject:

    Peter, The bird in Australia we call black eyed yellow or clear- both bad names is recessive and so we have split birds. The true red eyed fallow is being bred out of some of these birds. At this stage in very small numbers. Is this normal for the fallow mutation in kakariki and is the fallow also recessive ? Do the fallows vary in colour in europe? Breeding results of these fallows have been poor, any suggestions to improve this?
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    Peter
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:14 am    Post subject:

    Wyndara, yes they vary extremely. In the past I expected that the cinnamon could be responsible for the lighter appearance of some Fallows. From my breeding results there is no cinnamon involved in these birds. Only the lutino's are a combination of cinnamon and fallow.
    I believe that the different fallows are just a natural variation.

    Fallows seem hard to breed. Chick mortality is about 50% but may vary between breeding pairs. They also have much shorter down compared to chicks of other mutations.



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    wyndara
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:00 pm    Post subject:

    Peter, has the bird in the first picture got red eyes ? I only ask this because it looks more like a dilute than a fallow. the second bird is what is being bred here at the moment. Is there a true lutino in Europe or are they all the cinnamon fallow combinations which carry the red eye and yellow plumage? this is the same bird we have here in Australia and where the fallows are coming from at the moment. What pairings are you using to produce fallows?
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    Peter
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject:

    wyndara wrote:
    Peter, has the bird in the first picture got red eyes ?

    Yes, he has defenitely red eyes(see pic)

    wyndara wrote:
    Is there a true lutino in Europe or are they all the cinnamon fallow combinations which carry the red eye and yellow plumage?

    I'm not sure. I once asked Martin Rasek, the author of the genetic calculator, if he could help with some references about the sex linked lutino mentioned on his genetic calculator. He wasn't able to give one.
    From my breeding results and others here in Belgium the so called recessive lutino always appear to be a cinnamon fallow. Sometimes they have a few brown feathers. When you pair a cinnamon fallow male to a hen which is split to fallow, some hens will be visual lutino. In my opinion this is the reason why some lutino's are erroneously called sex linked.

    wyndara wrote:
    What pairings are you using to produce fallows?

    The best pairings I have from split birds. I have tried fallow x fallow, but non of them survived.



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    wyndara
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:15 pm    Post subject:

    Thanks Peter for your replies, I am about to try a couple of posible split fallow pairs to see what happens. Are there any new colour mutations being developed in your part of the world? A blue or opaline would be nice, we keep dreaming and hoping a new colour will turn up.
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    Peter
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject:

    Yes, a true blue would be the cream of the crop. According to Buller there once was a blue specimen found in the southland of NZ. From his descriptions it sounds that it rather was a Turquoise instead of a Blue. So, let's hope if it was a true mutation that it is still (hidden) among our current population.

    About the Opaline. There are currently some yellow crowns in Europe which have to be identified yet(see pic). These birds have white down and black eyes. Feet are pinkish to grey. These are qualities of Opaline but one breeder affirmed me that they inherit dominant. So, I don't know for sure.


    Another bird which is in my possession looks like some kind of chimera. The bird is half normal and half Cinnamon. Maybe you can call it a half-sider but such a bird should be symmetrical. Another point is that his/her size is between a male and a female. I paired this bird with a female. I saw them mating but so far two nests with infertile eggs.



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    Peterlimburg
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    PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:27 pm    Post subject:

    Hi, I have willdcolourd en yellow BEC/ lutinos' (goldcheck).
    I know that the breading results with pure lutino's (red eyes) and also fallows are very poor. The size of these birds is 10% smaller then a usuale bird .
    I have see the first time in my life an INO bird a few weeks ago by visiting Peter, they are very rare to find.
    My conclusion is that the mortality is very high also the age is very low.
    It's possible an kind of albino (red eyes) factor who is responseble for it.
    If i look to the breading result from the last years i can see that the lutino's are more and more dominate with less, but not lost the recesive factor Think .
    I wonder what the results are in the a the common years . Rolling Eyes Think
    There are a lot of things we don't know about mutations.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now I say this:

    Save the pure wildcolour birds in the natur and as Pet, without hybrides.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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    pabloc
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    PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject:

    Excellent lesson about genetics.

    Talking about pied mutation, anyone knows if it has been possible to isolate the recessive pied mutation?
    There's an old post from Rob, he says he tried but had given up after some generations being unsuccessful.

    Quote:
    Save the pure wildcolour birds


    Peterl., you are very right, the first thing I'm aiming for is establishing a good strain of pure green birds.
    But... it's very difficult even to make a start. Most birds are dominant pied split recesive. And the dominant pied can be "dangerous" as sometimes there is just 1 feather or 1 skin patch, but the inheritance is dominant (like in cockatiel the white nape) and it would spoil the whole work if not detected.

    But the biggest problem is that in Spain and Portugal is really difficult to find pure red crowns or yellow crowns, most of the birds show traces of hybrids.
    How can I expect to get a good strain of wildcolors, if all the birds I can find are hybrids?

    Quote:
    Yes, a true blue would be the cream of the crop.

    I couldn't agree more.
    There are so many interesting potential mutations... we could go crazy hehe
    lutino, turquoise, blue, violet, edged, opaline, dilute, pastel, etc...
    (just taking a look at some of the available budgie, lovebird or ringneck mutations :) )

    Sooner or later they will show up :)

    cheers / Pablo

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    Peter
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    PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:20 pm    Post subject:

    pabloc wrote:
    There are so many interesting potential mutations... we could go crazy hehe
    lutino, turquoise, blue, violet, edged, opaline, dilute, pastel, etc...
    (just taking a look at some of the available budgie, lovebird or ringneck mutations :) )



    Yes, that's one of the reasons I started with Kakariki. Compared to Budgies we start from scratch.



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    Peterlimburg
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    PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:33 am    Post subject:

    pabloc wrote:
    Excellent lesson about genetics. How can I expect to get a good strain of wildcolors, if all the birds I can find are hybrids? Pablo



    A nest with nine eggs and as result nine chicks.

    The answere, very, very, good looking and search, know the breeders, and a lot of luck.
    I have send this week a email to Steptoe, I think , he knows what i'm meaning with import to Europe.................. . signlol



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    Steptoe
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    PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject:

    Each of those kakariki above, look as good as any pure breeds we have in NZ...
    As far as CITES, exporting to Europe, there would not be 5h!t Show in hell.
    The chances are far slmmer than us trying to import the mutation genes back into NZ.

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    pabloc
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    PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:01 pm    Post subject:

    Peterl.

    excellent birds you got, I'm impressed.
    And they are probably even better in person.
    Like Peter Wouter's kakarikis, photos aren't good enough to express the intensity of the color and the beauty of the birds.

    Quote:
    The answere, very, very, good looking and search, know the breeders, and a lot of luck.

    Hahaha
    I know the breeders, and they have done the very good looking and search, but... I don't have the luck to be able to get those birds to Spain.
    But... victory shall be mine. I have some aces in my sleeve.

    Steps, regarding the European stock, I see only one problem, and is that maybe there's too much mix between subespecies. Probably Peter Wouters can shed more light on this.

    And the pics you see here are from a handful elite breeders, most other kakariki are hybrids and feather quality, etc... is not as good.

    If only they would allow importing pure red, yellow, and orange fronts in Europe, that would be really awesome. But they could apply the same methods in NZ and would be as valid, I think.
    Yellow seem to not be endangered in the wild, and for orange, it would be a passport to recovery.

    But I would imagine kilometers of paperwork, alas.

    regards to everyone

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    Steptoe
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    PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:33 pm    Post subject:

    Quote:
    Yellow seem to not be endangered in the wild,

    Dont believe everything you read.
    Got a very good friend..spent yrs hunting Deer etc all over NZ
    hes only seen/heard 2 kakariki in over 20 yrs.

    Oh and see that dropped blue feather above?
    That is quite common in sevel of our blood lines...was quite curious to see the same thing in European birds
    In case you Euro guys think it is a 'fault' I would seriouslyreconsider that line of thought.

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