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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Question for the European breeders
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Question for the European breeders
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Kaka-riki
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Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:45 am    Post subject: Question for the European breeders

Guys,
I have a question for you that has been raised by one of our genetics experts here in Australia. I would be interested in reading your thoughts.
His question is this;
The black eyed clear is a mutation that is produced by combining the dominant and recessive pied mutations. So that would indicate that the recessive pied mutation has to be present in Europe. The question is this. Is the single factor pied bird in Europe actually a recessive pied. Has any breeder test mated these birds to prove their genetic inheritance. I am trying to establish if there is any way to tell the difference between the dominant pied (single factor) and recessive pied.
I am really keen to find out how you guys have established the black eye clear and pied mutations overseas.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:34 am    Post subject:

I believe one of my birds is a recessive pied but was unable to test mate it. The reason why they are so rare in my country is the presence of the dominant pied. Because of his popularity the dominant pied has swallowed the recessive pied. This means that some dominant pieds are split for recessive pied but also for fallow, lutino and cinnamon.

I believe that the eyes are an important key to distinguish the different types.

Dark eyed clear > double-factor dominant pied
Visible iris ring > recessive pied
Half visible iris ring > single factor dominant pied

Red clear eye > lutino or fallow is hidden

The combination of dominant and recessive pied results in a complete yellow bird and is what we call a “Goldcheck”.

Peter
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for the reply Peter. You have confirmed my findings here in Australia. We now have the dominant pied mutation also and it works in the same way you have described. The recessive pied has been in this country for many years. The trick now will be to keep the 2 mutations seperated so that we dont lose the recessive pied as you guys have done in Europe.
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Henk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:37 am    Post subject:

can you see this on the outside of the bird ?????

i was once told that this was visible in the amount of pied the bird had
or have they told me a fairytail


greets

henk

www.hvgool-kakarikie.nl/kakarikiforum
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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:08 am    Post subject:

Yes, I've heard this too. The recessive pied has to be more pied then the dominant pied. But what confuses me is that there are recessive pieds with much less pied markings. The Australian breeders call them reverse pieds. I always thought they were visual splits.

Maybe there are 2 recessive pieds? A major and a minor one.

Peter
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kakasa
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:15 pm    Post subject:

Hi all. When it comes to the technical side of mutations I am in the dark so could you answer a question for me please? What colour eyes should a cinnamon Kakariki have? Thanks.
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Henk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject:

hi

a cinnamon kakariki should have black eyes

henk


www.hvgool-kakarikie.nl/kakarikiforum
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject:

Peter and Henk

The recessive pied Kakariki has been the main mutation here in Australia for many years. Being a recessive mutation there are birds produced that show very little pied markings and some may only display pied markings on the legs and feet. These are reffered to as "splits". However, it is also possible that pairing 2 splits will produce better pied offspring.

I am not sure where the term "reserve pied" comes from as I have never seen a recessive pied that showed more pied area than normal green. We do have some birds that display a lot of yellow but these are normally the mottled pied mutation which eventually turns all yellow.

To date the pied offspring we have produced from the black eyed clear mutation have all displayed only small pied areas. But, we have paired 2 of these pied birds and from them have produced a black eyed clear that is pure yellow. This particular bird also shows red in the tail feathers but I dont believe it is anything of significance.

Our original pairing was a black eyed clear hen to a normal cock bird. This cock bird shows no pied at all but was bred from a black eyed clear pairing itself. These birds on average produce 5 birds per clutch and 75% of these young are yellow birds. Some of the yellow's produced do have small areas of green on them usually around the head and neck area.
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Allen
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:13 am    Post subject:

Peter, a stupid question, the bird in your avatar is a cinnamon?

Sorry to butt into your discussion guys with a silly question.
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Henk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:46 am    Post subject:

i believe it is a pied cinnamon

greetz

henk







www.hvgool-kakarikie.nl
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Allen
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:11 am    Post subject:

Thank you, I was wandering why it looked lighter than a normal Cinnamon.

I have paired the female ? lutino / gold check ? (the male died) in my avatar with a normal green and two of their chicks are cinnamon and the other one is normal. The cinnamon? chicks were born with red eyes (not so red anymore) and are brighter and a bit more yellow than my other cinnamons. So I was wondering if they are jsut a better quality cinnamon or are they something else?

I am going to pair one of the split cinnamon babies with a pied male that I have. The pied male is about 80% green, he has one pink foot and one normal grey foot, his tail is yellow and he has a few yellow flecks around the neck and head. The rest of his body is green but there are some lighter areas on his chest. Any ideas on what to expect? Think It will probably take almost a year before there are any babies. Whistle
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Henk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:56 am    Post subject:

do you have a picture of the young birds

it is possible that you have fallow young bird
at least the subscription you write down gives me the idea that it is possible
there a normal cinnamon no red eyes have but black eyes

greetz

henk


www.hvgool-kakarikie.nl
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Peter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject:

Allen, do they look like this one?

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Allen
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject:

They could look like the one in your photo. Over the week-end, I will catch a young normal cinnamon and one of the babies in question and try and get a good photo. It will also be easier to see if there is much difference then. I am 100% sure they had red eyes when they were a few days old as when I checked them I thought they might turn out Lutino as they were so much more pink than a normal kakariki baby and had red eyes. The green baby had normal eyes.
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kakariki
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject:

Hi guys,
I read the discussion about the mutations. About the recessiv pied birds, I do not know anyone who can proof he has a recessiv pied bird in Holland or Belgium.
I paired a 100% pure wildcolour male (the guy from Austria from whome I got the bird, bred pure wildcolour over 10 years)with a red eyed golden yellow female. All the offspring (round 35 chicks) was wildcolour pied and the amound of yellow was around 40%. This proves the male had no sexlinked mutations in itself
To find out what mutation was in the original female I paired brother and sister from the offspring. It was pure magic, the offspring (ca 17 birds) was wildcolour pied males and females, cinnamon pied females, 100% golden yellows, red eyed golden yellow and redeyed pale yellow (lutino). There were no fallow chicks. I wasn't able to breed back a pure wildcolour, there was always a yellow feather.
One chick was a cinnamon pied hen but had very light bodycolour and like dilute back feathers. Also the head was more or less yellower. I try to put a photo here. I think this mutation is a combination of lutino and cinnamon or something else. I paired this bird to her uncle but till now I only bred cinnamons from this pair.
So sofar I have to conclude that the original red eyed yellow female was DF pied (all the chicks were pied), cinnamon (the offspring of her son had only cinnamon females) and lutino. I can't say there is no recessiv pied in there. The other thing that bothers me is that there is no pure wildcolour offspring, there should be around 25% of them.
Breeders off all kind of dominant pied birds tell me it's hard to breed dom pied out of your line. Maybe the dom pied gene is on a place were crossingover of genes take easily place. (this phenomenon is rare discribed in genetics books but it is of importance. It means that during the forming of DNA in the first cel a piece of the mothers gene brakes off and gets in the fathers place and vice versa. This phenomena is essential to breed pearled lutino cinnamon cockatiels or opaline lutino bourks parakeets. All these mutations are on the sex chromosome).
Some people think the dom pied is not on one gene but on more genes, by that you can imagine how difficult it is to outbreed dom pied.

Peter you told you bred cinnamons in a different colour. Well even in my golden yellow breeding line there are slight differences in the intensity of the yellow colour. Also my pastellen? or fallows? have slightly different colours, and also wildcolours are different in colour. So I am sure there are more mutations around of which we are not aware. By the way a cinnamon is born with red eyes (not so bright as a lutino) which turn to a normal slighty browner eye after a few weeks. The iris is still there.

I haven't seen the mottled pied in Holland yet
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