The bird in Pieters avatar...If I did not know better and know I have not taken it, I would swear it is one from one of my breeding lines.
Not the deep crimsom crown, and the clean almost rectangle shape behind the eye.
Yes we do have a variation in body colour depth of kakariki here, thu the crown remains a deep crimson rather than a red, but does vary slightly in colour.
Colour variation it is noticable in several of our native bird species...particularly the fantail, where in the nth of NZ it is quite brightly coloured and as one moves sth down the length of the country, becomes more brownish.
Leg colours also vary from a darkish pink /brown to a grey.....I have not been able to relate this to a blood line, seems random.
The yellow crown also has this variation but tends to be a few shades lighter. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I thought the picture in my avatar would trigger you guys.
I am a starting breeder of pure wild colour redfronted kakariki. For more than a year a collected from the internet more than 100 pictures of wild kakariki's. I use my avatar bird as reference that my own birds should meet as much as possible. I have high quality "pure wild colour" birds in my avaries from Peter Wauben (with Oosterkamp blood) and 2 german breeders.
... and Steptoe, expert, you are absolutely right. My avatar photo is from a wild kakariki from Matiu/Somes island, a predator free island, in de Wellington harbour. Perhaps it is offspring or original from the translocation projects jun 08 2003 (11 males) or mar 01 2004 (12 males, 7 females). I am not sure but I remember to have read that they originated from kapiti island. Birds from kapiti island originate from little barrier island (the source where all translocated birds come from).
The photo of my avatar bird is by far the best photo I found on the internet that resembles, in my opinion, the pure wild colour kakariki. 3 beautiful pictures of this bird (but also others) can be found on "Flickr".
By the way, after evaluating 100's of pictures on the internet of redfronted kakariki in captivity I can say that the birds of Steptoe and John Stumbler from NZ are the best (.... and then my own )
I also think that the birds in the avary of Steptoe are more pure than the ones in the wild. Harrie van der Linden wrote that about 1 -10% of all matings in the wild result in hybrid offspring. Looking at all the pictures I collected over the last year I would say this is more than 70%. Steptoe, I hope that someday, DOC will see that it's better to translocate from your avary to the wild then from little barrier island (and by far less expensive).
Peter, my german birds are significantly larger than the birds I obtained in the Netherlands. Perhaps Belgium and The Netherlands got the Rowley from Dusky Sound and Germany the ones from the North island? Or is it just the large variation in size that I am looking at?
John Stumblers birds and mine are from different blood lines as far as we know....
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Harrie van der Linden wrote that about 1 -10% of all matings in the wild result in hybrid offspring. Looking at all the pictures I collected over the last year I would say this is more than 70%.
From my own experiance in experiments over several yrs to see how easy the yellow and red would mate..I have to strongly dispute this.
And as to reds and yellows crossing in the wild in the last hundred yrs , very unlikely.
I can not get , in captivity yellows and red to mate , forced in small cages, flights or even in mixed flight....I have to conclude that any cross in capitivity has to be forced /induced way beyond these parameters.
As to crossing in the last 100 yrs, there are practically no reds on the main lislands , no reds in the same location as yellows ....But there is a small population of Orange crown along side yellows and they dont cross in the wild.
Bit of background here, for decades the Government authorities believe the orange (all 3 used to co habit thruogh out NZ) wa a cross between reds and yellows, but breeders in NZ and world wide said different.
DoC and its predesser dept experimented extensivily crossing reds and yellows (which is mainly why we have a high incidence of hybrid in the NZ captive population).Anyway dispite the universal consensis of private breeders DoC set out to destroy the orange kakariki in the wild.
Then not long ago DNA was tested and what breeders havesaid for 100 yrs was right and the orange kakariki is now one of the rarest birds in the world.
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Peter, my german birds are significantly larger than the birds I obtained in the Netherlands. Perhaps Belgium and The Netherlands got the Rowley from Dusky Sound and Germany the ones from the North island? Or is it just the large variation in size that I am looking at
Size...comments are often made by visiter here on the size of some of my kakariki, yellows and reds.
When I 1st started out I set out to breed large kakariki by sective breeding...and it didnt work...So I just let them choose their parners in a comunity flight...
What happened was suprising...they would not choose a sibling or a parent, or sibling from a different batch...cousins yes but that was only when they source of more distant relatives was not availble.
It didnt matter if we had a small female and small male, whatever, we just produced big birds.
Then moved onto the next genetation the same way and they got bigger.
It was not diet..high proteins etc...we had alrewady established that part and yes that also had reasonable results, espec while parents where feeding young.
Personally Ido not believe variation in size, within reason is due to the blood stock or localities, for both reds and yellows.
I really wish that DoC and the learned world of dregrees and phds would reconise the experise of years of hands on daily experiance.
Then wecould work along side and so many of their questions and ours could be answered.
Some of these people do, on the quiet, but offically there is no interrelationship...and if there was orange would not be so endanged and so many species would be off the CITES list. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Pieter, for a starting breeder you did your homework well.
About the Rowley. That must have been a very small bird. It was smaller than the Yellow Crown.
I don't know much about breeding results in Germany but I always had the feeling that the normals there were as rare as in Belgium. Only recently I notice advertations such as "Reine wildfärben" which means 'pure wildcolours/normals'. The same advertisement as made in Holland which made me conclude they originate from there.
Steptoe wrote:
Quote:
Harrie van der Linden wrote that about 1 -10% of all matings in the wild result in hybrid offspring. Looking at all the pictures I collected over the last year I would say this is more than 70%.
From my own experiance in experiments over several yrs to see how easy the yellow and red would mate..I have to strongly dispute this.
That has Harrie borrowed from my website. This information I found on this forum.
If I'm not mistaking it was about the populations at Little Barier where both live side by side.
Steptoe wrote:
When I 1st started out I set out to breed large kakariki by sective breeding...and it didnt work...So I just let them choose their parners in a comunity flight...
What happened was suprising...they would not choose a sibling or a parent, or sibling from a different batch...cousins yes but that was only when they source of more distant relatives was not availble.
It didnt matter if we had a small female and small male, whatever, we just produced big birds..
Probably it has something to do with Heterosis. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis
The least the parents are related the higher the effect of Heterosis
Something else about the conservation of a specie. Years ago I had a phonecall with Dirk van den Abeele from the Mutavi group. They are specialised in genettics of parrots. He said "When you ever have a line of normals, just keep the average". With average he didn't mean only the size. If you have a preference for certain youngsters you select for birds that deviate from the original wildstock. Just look at the showbudgies, Agapornis Roseicolli etc.
If I'm not mistaking it was about the populations at Little Barier where both live side by side
Yes they do live side by side, sort of...The yellow crown tends to live higher in the forest trees and rarely leaves the forest where as thered spends most of its time on the ground and ventures out into open ground...
And From my understanding from current researches hybridisation in the wild hasnt and isnt an issue.
If it was the case we would be seeing what appears an orange crown (mix of red and yellow feathers up close) we dont.
Which is where the DoC confusion came about..the orange kakariki has a definate orange band across the beak...like the yellow has a red band. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I know I am a newcomer, so don't be offended, but perhaps this website, where it stands for, could also benefit from heterosis.
For more than 200 years ago NZ was a bird paradise. European kolonisation introduced mammal predators (rats. stoats. feral cats, etc ..) before unknown to NZ but devastating to it's birds. We completely destroyed the ecological environments where these birds thrived so well.
Since kakariki's are more an addiction than a hobby to me I would really like to know : can the paradise pure wildcolour redfronted kakariki still be found in NZ? Or are they already lost decennia ago and are we haunting a ghost if we want to breed to a pure wildcolour standard based upon current observations.
If these paradise pure redfronted kaks still exist (in the wild), than, in my opinion, they should be found on little barrier island. And indeed there also live yellow fronted kakariki's. However, I've seen photo's from redfronted from Enderby island and the Chatham islands, where they also cohabitate with yellow fronted, that showed severe signs of hybridisation. According to Steptoe this has not happened on little barrier. I hope so, but I think there is a stronger case when we have also scientific evidence.
I know Steptoe's opinion about people with a PhD, however I think that both worlds can unite and so increase our knowledge of the kakariki.
The 3 translocations led by Luis OC also originated from little barrier, perhaps he can comment on this topic. Or perhaps could his supervisor Diane Brunton. And if not, wouldn't it be an great research project for a MSc/PhD student to clarify this question (amongst others)? I am willing to contact these people (just to gain max heterosis) but do not want to offend people that have already been years active on this forum. .... so please comment on this.
Perhaps we could start a project about the history of the kakariki and the current state where it is in now on this site? Wouldn't it be nice that DOC helped us instead of just being annoyed by them Steps? Or perhaps even better to get funding from NZ government for such kind of projects?
can the paradise pure wildcolour redfronted kakariki still be found in NZ?
And not only in the places u mention wich happen to be protected reserves , but in some general isloated areas on the mainland also.
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For more than 200 years ago NZ was a bird paradise. European kolonisation introduced mammal predators (rats. stoats. feral cats, etc ..) before unknown to NZ but devastating to it's birds.
Well thats the accepted PC version...that most of our birds that have become endangers and extinct happened before European colonisation and before the rats stoat etc, is no longer PC acceptable...And that more land was burnt off clears beforee European colonisation is also no longer PC aceptable...well rather pushed under the mat and ignored these days.
Rats stoats etc certainly have a marked effect...but so does many other native bird species that filled the gap mammals normally took. Birds of prey, weka....
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I've seen photo's from redfronted from Enderby island and the Chatham islands, where they also cohabitate with yellow fronted, that showed severe signs of hybridisation.
I have not seen these birds personally but from photos it looks far more like natural mutations than hybridisation......keeping in mind orginally mutations in flocks of kakariki where commented on as to the numbers and types
I have met some of those u meantion....Luis is now Dr. Luis..a good guy
No u would not offend anyone by contacting..quite the opposite...everything is up front here.
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Wouldn't it be nice that DOC helped us instead of just being annoyed by them Steps?
Yes it would..would have been nice to the breeders before us, would have been nice 40yrs ago, even last year..would be nice for those who breed native replitles, ducks, snails insects..would be of great benifit to conservation....yes would be nice to share /chat/ invovement....open and above board....unfortunately is not, never has been, never will be. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Steps, very interesting that you have found that reds and yellows that you keep are reluctant to pair and breed. Reds and yellows here in aus seem to have no problems pairing and breeding freely ( unfortunately). I believe this could be to do with hybrids. It is almost impossable to find pure reds and yellows here anymore, more so reds because of all the mutations. Yellows are now heading the same way. Breeders crossing the red crown mutations to yellow crowns, the end result will be no pure strain kakarikis in aus if we are not already there now , very sad really it has occured very quickly. Only hope is for new wild blood from over the ditch..... but that aint going to happen. Some times when new mutations come along in a species of bird we all say that the wild type needs to be kept along side the new mutations to preserve them as such. In the real world mutations demand huge money and the normals fall in price. what gets bred ? I am sorry to say I fell into the above situation. I am now on the hunt for as pure a blood line as i can find, so far things are not looking good.
Steps, very interesting that you have found that reds and yellows that you keep are reluctant to pair and breed. Reds and yellows here in aus seem to have no problems pairing and breeding freely ( unfortunately). I believe this could be to do with hybrids.
Yes, so do I...
As I mentioned before, when one thows a hwhole lot of related and unreated birds together they m8 with those most unrelated....I believe that it has something to do with the crown, shape/ colour/or even a utravoilet relection from it...like a unique finger print.
If on has hybrids to start with, there could be just enough similarity in the 2 crowns to attract, and not enough difference to stop thm doing so
The yellows and red I experimented with also had at times other species in, turqs, burkes there was more interaction between the kakariki and them than between the 2 kakariki species...as if a magnet of similar poles was pushed together, the close the more resitance. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
We found with ours that the cinnamon birds are shunned by the rest of the family (normal green), so both cinnamons will sit together (two females) but the other birds wont sit close with them and are sometimes agressive.
I think it is very very unlikely that kakariki are exported anymore from NZ, and if that ever happens it will be many years from now.
So my best advice would be that you do the same some of us did in Europe. Purchase the best looking birds you can find, and start your own breeding program. It´s not quite the same as starting from 100% guaranteed pure birds but... it´s something.
If you recall we also commented in the forum about a project by several Dutch and Danish breeders that are trying to breed budgies in format as close as possible to the wildtype, and free of mutations.
Pieter, a couple of years back I also searched the net for pics (including flickr, etc...) but unfortunately most pics I saw of wild birds seemed to have traces of hybridisation.
About the releases, back in time I think Steps mentioned that some of the released kakariki had hybrid blood, and other birds donated by private breeders that were supposed to be pure and disease free were discarded.
You don´t offend anyone and in fact is very nice to have more people that is interested in discussing different stuff. Even if some of us have different opinions it´s also good, as it´s richer. If we all had the same opinion this forum would be very boring. At least for me it´s very interesting when new members join and offer new topics for discussion or new information. There are times that this forum becomes a bit sleepy. It´s a pity in fact that some other Dutch and Belgian breeders join and we could expand a bit the talk about mutations, breeding, selection, etc...
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