Hi and to our Community.
1st off u have to have an aviary positioned and suitable for approval by DoC..The problem here is that DoC do not have any actual specs that I know of, but some rather vague suggestions.
The Aviary Plans that I have in the forums met with approval and I may say quite some praise from the DoC inspector.
2nd You apply for your permit, this depends upon what part of NZ u are in, if u could let us know, and we will then give u the appropriate details. Approval can take a week to several months, depending on who and when u deal with the ppl at DoC. Approval can be made there and then or later, depending on who u get. This is considered a very low priority in DoC work loads. The permit is about $55/3yrs
3rd Once u have approval u can the source your birds. Be very careful where u source from, several breeders still have illegal hybrids (cross between red and yellow species)
Kakariki can not be mixed with other birds....Silly really, Kakariki are great community birds
Species cannot be mixed in the same flight, in case of cross breeding, again silly, as unless one forces them to cross breed , they don't. DoC don't know this.
You cannot have more than 1 pair in a flight, again silly, Kakariki are a community birds, and even in the wild 'flock'
Kakariki can not be kept as in door caged birds, as 'pets' again silly as kakariki have a natural lack of fear of Man, and enjoy the attention.
You can not hand tame or teach to talk, again silly, as they naturally are tame, and when one walks into an aviary that is well kept, and therefore the owner regularly feeds fresh food, cleans floors, bowels etc, they will come down and jump on u...very inquisitive birds.
And how do I know all this...A few beers with other breeders, off the record, and one hell of a lot of information and experience from our colleagues off shore
From what I have gathered over the yrs, The DoC ppl at grassroots level are very good ppl, tend to know a little about the subject, and are willing to take on board the wealth of knowledge within the Private breeding Community....BUT the policies (not legisation) are made by some idiot desk jockey who most properly has never kept an aviary of any kind, sitting at a desk in Wellington justifying their importance and job with something that appears on the surface, looks good to others who also have never kept birds. Well maybe they had a budgie as a kid.
If I am wrong on this assumption, then one can only come to the conclusion, the situation has come about by by even worse circumstances.
If u breed, say from 1 pair, be prepared to have to KILL OFF 20 to 30, beautiful, endangered NZ native Kakariki birds, each yr.
Don't consider to release illegally, this places a risk, althu small, to our wild population of hybrids and disease.
You may like to offer to Conservation Trusts and organisations thru out NZ...eeven for free...Dont count on it, they have to be approved by DoC (rightly so) The problem here is that DoC has a system to allocate funds to Different species. Those species at high risk get the funds. A logical ands fair system that I personally cant fault.
When one thinks thru this, in regards to Kakariki and several other species, what happens is there always has been and most probably always will be Species ranked higher. No funding for these species.
This is where DoC's logic and forethought Stops short.
What I and other breeders now question...Why does it have to be this way?
Why not simply approve a few private breeders, and breeding pairs, Have a few 'honorary' responsible Volunteer breeders oversee, in the same manner as local fisheries inspectors, or as the LTSA does with modified vehicles on our roads. This was negotiated by NZ Rod Rod Association and other Motor Sports Bodies in NZ...We now have qualified Engineers, Inspecting and Approving, construction and safety of Modified vehicles. A very successful exercise in retrospect after 20 yrs of operation providing far higher and informed stds than ever before.
A similar concept, swapping breeding birds between breeders to maintain genetic variety, regular inspections to maintain stds...may DoC could cover petrol expenses, and shipping (about $40 for a pair from one end of NZ to the other) Mention to some shipping Companies they are Native and they do it for Free.
I ask, why not release Kakariki into small urban bush reserves? Even if there is no possum/stoat control? DoC says "cause they will die"
My answer is, "how do u know" there are small examples in many sites around NZ where Kakariki survive OK, no one can supply any research on this, AND I'm going to ring our Kakariki s necks any way so what is there to loose?
We run an Internet search on Kakariki funding for breeding, I come up with about $65000 over the last few yrs, and that is a quick search.
So where has this money gone, those who received are not breeding...
Yet a capital investment by a private breeder in an aviary and gear of around $1000 to $1500 will reap 20 to 50 birds a yr.
In 5 yrs we could have hard and soft breeding releases all over NZ, and one of the most successful breeding/conservation programs anywhere in the world. Where is the logic in turning down such a scheme that is for Damn near free?
Also Kakariki will be on the Mainland, not some restricted remote Island, for NZers to enjoy.
Oh while I'm here figure this...One of the most endangered species in the world is the Orange Kakariki...what does DoC do...build a huge very EXPENSIVE Aviaries with trees etc to breed them. Then try to catch them stressing the hell out of the birds...so they end up with a few deaths, something private breeders don't have. AND ONLY 39 birds out of several pair...Stupid. We could have told them that...well we did actually.
So what are they going to do with these Kakariki? throw them out on a remote Island...A fire, or big storm...Gone!! Anyone told DoC about eggs all in one basket.
I caught Part news item about a week ago, DoC has run out of Funds to continuing to maintaining their breeding Stock...No wonder the huge expensive aviaries, salaries in line with a line of PhD, and degrees after ppls names, who just cant match yrs of experience of private breeders
So a private Breeder applies for a permit to breed them, all looking good, then a big wad of papers turn up of conditions that have to be agreed ed to.
Get to about page 4 and what does it say "All eggs and Chicks must be destroyed" One can only describe this as BS.
While Motuihe Island Trust (and others) are crying out for Kakariki to release.
Breeders around the country are either killing or illegally releasing their birds.
The great success story of DoCs introduction to Tiri TirI Matangi, turning out to be hybrids, that breeders where aware of at the time, And DoC in their arrogance ignored..is now a useless resource. I ask, where is DoC being up front to the NZ public about this?
The GOOD ppl at grass roots in DoC are frustrated and cant make logical waves, or use world wide Conservation experience of which is the basis they where employed for in the 1st place.
Getting info is difficult, DoC has a record of Censoring and picking 'favourable' news media ppl.
Therefore some of what I say above may not be fully accurate, but that doesn't mean to say I'm not close.
So what are Kakariki to NZ.....
Take out all the Rosella, sparrows, thrushes, blackbirds, myna etc, replace these with Kakariki and u now have NZ as it was 100 to 120 yrs ago.
I'm not saying remove and replace, I saying that is what NZ was like.
DoC says Rosella, an introduced bird will take out Kakariki..sure wild is a bit different than captivity, but go thru these forums, Kakariki in the nest will take on all comers, successfully, 3 or 4 times their size..
DoC knows Squat about kakariki. A couple of DoC experts have limited knowledge and experience.
We Do..we have collected the top breeders, experts, in NZ and all round the the world here...We KNOW, we have resources DoC can only dream about, and we provide them for their use also...But we are just Dumb stupid breeders, no long letters after our names, "Sh@# stirrers who have use Trade Union Attitudes" Yes THAT IS the description used on several occasions.
We have nothing to gain, financially, personally, or hidden agendas like trying to source funding or salaries. All we want is for our grand child to be able to enjoy Kakariki as a common NZ native bird as our Great, Great, grand parents Didn't. I wasn't rats stoats possums so much, that made them rare as DoC would have us believe...They where shot in their 10s of 1000s as a pest and having no fear of man, it was so easy.
I was asked to put a proposal forward for submission not long ago...from bottom up...I have previously done so from top down thru the Minister of Conservation office...got a white wash. Others over the last few yrs have invested in large aviaries and facilities, made proposals....Result totally ignored, AoDoC..(Arogance of the Dept of Conservation)
Next argument from DoC is "provide proof, evidence" Actions speak for themselves...oh do a bit of digging with a Google search, ask around...After all it has been know in the past breeders have been 'inspected' and required to "upgrade facilities" that have been previously approved...yet DoC have very vague guidelines on requirements and there information sheet says to contact a breeder for more detailed information...
I'm going to finish here...There is so much more, and I'm going to have dinner.
I provide hard hitting critisum...AND Simple soln as have others in the past.
Appologies to Cake...the original poster who just requested a few details
Sry m8....caught me at a bad time...knocked off 12 kakariki not long ago and trying to get my head around why Im going to knock off another 10 to 15 in a few days time. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I come from Masterton and work as a volunteer at Mt Bruce/Pukaha and adore the 2 yellow crowned kakariki there and their little chatterings (plus all the other birds).
The staff there are a bunch of rule benders there so I like them alot.
I would love to change the way things are being run. It makes me mad how illogical things are within DoC. You'd think they'd try to do all they could to SAVE birds as they make out but they're doing the opposite. It's all controlled by politics and power.
I definately want to do something in conservation when I grow up and I would love to see the kakariki be a common site in gardens (like the tui)
I can't believe you actually have to bump them off. I'm appalled. They're such nice natured birds arrgh I'm getting pissed off. I agree with alot of stuff you said there.
Ok thankyou for all that information. It was helpful and it's not like this is the first time I've heard complaints about DoC. I tihnk I'm going to like it here.
The staff there are a bunch of rule benders there so I like them alot.
As I said, the grass roots guys in DoC are great bunch
And DoC doesnt like rebels. At Mt Bruce is basically DoC...I would imagine that there is someone there would has the authority to inspect and issue permits.
This is my 1st aviary, It is built as cheap as possible and just as simply.
Locate it so it is shaded in the heat of the summer sun mid afternoon.
Face it away from prevailing winds.
Print it out, pass it it by the Guys at Mt Bruce, If they think its OK for Kakariki build it.
Let us know what they think, opinions , improvements etc. Always looking for new concepts and ideas.
I would love to change the way things are being run.
Just because somethings are wrong, that doesnt mean everything is...There is a lot of very good stuff in DoC as well. Dont loose sight of that. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
The 1st consideration is to understand that DoC allocation of funds is based upon species at most risk. Red and Yellow crown Kakariki do not fall within this category, and like many Native species it is doubtful if they ever will, althu they are classified as threatened.
This does not mean that steps can not be taken thru other means to reestablish populations thru out the country. It was pointed out to me in an email last night, DoC already have president in doing this. Many Conservation projects, namely replanting are carried out by volunteers working in nurseries and planting out later. There is no reason that these highly successful principles can be applied to bird and other species.
I also note that there have been in resent yrs several other 'Schemes' proposed, all of a similar nature, and of good logic and basis. These have been given the Deep six, filed in file 13 with no good logical reason. These all have good points and intentions and do not deserve the contempt they have got.
1/ A group of 4 or 5 approved, responsible, experienced Kakariki volunteer breeders are established locally, in an area of mild weather, (eg Auckland) that has longer breeding season and not prone to sudden extremes and cold snaps. Overseen by DoC with volunteer supervisor/inspector. This person(s) may also take over local current and new permit approvals, and inspections of current establishments that DoC staff, due to funding and work loads, don't have time to carry out.
2/Each Breeder would have a minimum of 3 flights and one larger holding/isolation flight available. 3 flights for breeding each species, holding flight to keep access approved birds.. for replacements for pairs that don't mate and off spring. Species CAN be safely mixed in the holding flight with no nesting boxes. Size and design established from the experiance and sucessful practices of Kakariki Breeders in NZ and off Shore.
3/A base total population of 45 to 50 Kakariki, (Orange, Red and Yellow crown) is established from captive and/or wild populations. These would be screened for genetic purity/diversity and disease etc. The breeder's current birds and aviaries would also would also be screened to eliminate future risk to the environment.
4/ Each breeder is issued with 3 kakariki of each species, from this at least 1 compatible pair can be established for each species, and one spare. In the case of accident death, incompatibility, these spare birds can be swapped between breeders as a 'backup'
5/ Breeding pairs and individauls wouls be swapped betwen breders to maintain gentic diversirty
At the end of the 1st season, conservatively, approx 350 to 400 offspring.
Assuming they do not breed a 50/50 split male female, this would then result in approx 150 breeding pairs for the following season.
Future Breeding stock would be selected from large, strong Healthy birds with a record of good parenting skills.
These would then be distributed to 6 newly established breeder groups around the country. The remainder 100 to 150 birds could be distributed to Conservation trusts who are currently in need and unable to source approved Kakariki for release.
2nd Breeding Season:
7 breeding groups would produce approx 2000 to 2500 approved Kakariki.
From these The strongest and largest would be kept/replace the captive base breeding stock.
The remainder would then be distributed to Conversation Trusts, and establish releases in urban bush reserves, forest that have no pest control.
Both Soft and hard releases could be carried out.
Hard Release: This is where the birds are transported to release location straight from aviaries, and released without support, or minimum support of artificial nesting boxes, where the nature of the bush does not have older established trees suitable for nesting
Soft Release: Where a temporary holding aviary is built, with several nesting boxes. The Kakariki held and feed for about a week or until there ar4e a couple pairing off. The doors are then opened and left open. They aviary remains until it eventually rots and falls apart.
A network of urban and rural, schools, home owners, farmers, local Governments, that back on to urban and rural bush could be established with soft release aviaries through out the country further ensuring the Kakariki in numbers that they once where a 120 yrs ago.
Releases of each species should be made several Kms apart to help ensure establishment of each colony and social structure of the flocks. Each release would draw from several captive breeders to ensure genetic diversity.
Kakariki are and extremely brave and hardy native bird. Concern has been expressed as to competition from introduced species of birds (eg Rosella who have a reputation of aggression ) From observations within captive mixed aviaries, Kakariki can more than hold their own against these birds, even thu they maybe 4 or 5 time larger. With the establishment of large flocks, quickly, the breeding rate and hardiness of kakariki, it is very likely the introduced birds would themselves have trouble competing, rather than the common line of thought being the other way around.
As mentioned above, it is unlikely Kakariki would ever get funding.
Therefore costs would have to be met privately and sponsorship.
Selection and screening:
of initial breeding stock and aviaries for genetics/disease. I do not have any idea in regards to this, thu an initial investment of $3000 to $10000 would seem to be realistic. We have come across vets, who once realise Kakariki are a native bird, have waved or highly discounted charges. Some of the tests for disease, worms are low material cost and low labour. I am sure that there are Vets who would be prepared to 'give their heart a rub'. I would like to note, todate ALL the vets that have waved costs have been new immigrants to NZ from Sth Africa and Europe.
This is the single biggest hurdle. If Volunteer inspectors, permit processing was carried out over several yrs , this would off set any salary admin costs that DoC currently carry and redirecting these funds to initial screening in the 1st yr.
It is our experience several freight companies, once the know Kakariki are native take the attitude "NZ parrot, what the hell, we will throw them in the cab with the truck driver, anything he should watch for? Charge? what charge? forget it" I'm sure this could be negotiated in a more formal manner.
I have spoken to several local lumber yards, and wire mesh manufactures. Yes they could very well be interested in sponsoring material with the right publicity and official stamp of approval. Its not an overly expensive cost.
Anyone who can use a measuring tape, square, hand saw, screw driver, mix a little mortar in a wheel barrow, use a spade, and staple gun can build a good aviary....2 people 2 to 3 days.
Feeding and Maintenance:
Breeders already cover this, though with official sanctioning I'm sure the local veg shop or supermarket would be happy to supply fresh veggies fruit nuts. Again not a huge cost.
Breeders already supply labour for cleaning maintenance etc, the only difference they would no longer be doing it to kill their birds at the end of each season.
Breeders/volunteer travel expenses:
A few petrol vouchers would cover this.
Consequences of TOTAL FAILURE:
1/We would KNOW (not supposition) how Kakariki fair against pests, introduced species, able to adapt like Tui do in urban areas.
2/New permit holders would have to source birds from Known approved sources, current holders would be able to replace stock with approved, removing hybrids from current captive stocks...at no or very little cost
3/ Doc has a source to replace their own hybrid stock on Tiri Tiri Matangi Island, and where ever else they may have messed up.
4/The orange Kakariki , one of the rarest and endangered birds in the world, has a dramatic increase in numbers
5/What Kakariki populations that do establish themselves are for the there for easy and daily access on the main land for NZers and tourists to enjoy, not limited to obscure off shore islands (is that not what the ultimate objective of Conservation is all about?)
6/ We have on on going organised, monitored breeding structure and supply of birds for future projects and concepts
7/ A ready supply of captive Kakariki for future research.
8/ The knowledge not to make the same mistakes on release again, without further risk to the viability of good breeding stock.
8/ No great financial loss to the tax payer in case of failure.
Benefits if successful:
1/ This has the potential to be one of the greatest and successful Conserve ration Projects anywhere in the world..good PR for DoC and NZ. At very little cost to DoC, Government or tax payer.
2/ Return of Kakariki to its former glory and enjoyment to tourists and NZers alike, in the bush and city backyards
3/ The potential to make a huge change in ratios of introduced and native birds rurally and urban.
4/ Elimination of hybrids and poor quality Kakariki.
5/ Elimination of illegal releases that currently place the environment and genetic purity at risk due to current policies.
7/ Education of NZers in conservation thru school and community active involvement.
8/ A huge step forward in the natural 'balance of nature' in the NZ ecology strengthen other areas and species.
9/Elimination of 10 of 1000s of dollars of wasted money in funds grants as has been the case over the last 5 to 6 yrs on Kakariki breeding projects that to date the are No results for. (orange Kakariki grants not included)
10/ Orange kakariki comes off the list as one of the most Threatened and rare birds in the world.
11/ A ready made network (or blue print) of administration, breeders and facities to apply the same principles to other bird species suitable to apply to.
Problems if Successful:
1/ if very successful, we maybe in the same position as Aussie, where they have to cull kangaroo and other native animals due to crop/ destruction. Lets not forget, it was this reason Kakariki where almost made extinct 120 yrs ago. (rats and pests tended to finish off the very small populations that where left...THEY where NOT the cause as so many would have us believe)
2/ The illegal keeping of Kakariki as pets due to being so common easy to catch and make great pets, replacing in many cases cockateils, budgies, and other similar caged birds. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
I like your rant. Hi I am new here though I don't have any Kakarikis I am thoroughly interested in the conservation of New Zealands Endemic species. I am from New Zealand. I suppose its forbidden to talk politics here but I think its time something should be done and more community involvement in the conservation of species especially involvement of bird inthusiasts be they water fowl lovers, lizard lovers or in the case of you parrot lovers. If it is true and kakarikis breed like rabbits they should be sold as pets and there will be no danger if they escape. A portion of the money from each bird sold could go to the conservation of their larger cousins the Kakapo. Want to make a political party that concentrates on conservation? We could call it the Kakariki party as opposed to the green party. If so give me a buzz firstname.lastname@example.org. 500 party members are needed to be able to be listed on the electoral role.
ADMIN: Following moved here from another thread by same member
I agree with your rant in another thread. DoC needs more funding. How else is NZ to boast being clean and green when all its native birdlife is dead? Kakarikis breed like rabbits therefore every NZer who is interested should be able to keep a piece of NZ a 'kakariki' with no red tape though the non-hybridisation is a good rule.
It is NOT a Rant..it is a dead serious logical proposal and why
kakarikis breed like rabbits they should be sold as pets and there will be no danger if they escape.
The logic sounds good but is Not an option a birds native country. In the cast of Kakariki even more so.
At the moment we have 'new sightings' cropping up...why illegal release and the chances are these are hybrids. Even DoC stock on Tiri Tiri cant be used because I believe they are hybrids. I have 3 illegal hybrids here, rescued in extremely poor condition and passed on to us..We keep them simply as reference examples(see hybrids in gallery)
There is a lot of hybrids in breeders hands and even they have no idea they are!!
Freeing up native species then to say there is "no risk" is a big mistake.
Also is risk of disease.
Want to make a political party that concentrates on conservation?
No..this is not a political party issue, it is a bureaucratic issue. A matter of putting into place mechanics that more or less already exist but manpower and priorities don't cover. Nor is Funding is the problem. Funding currently correctly goes to those species of higher prioity...Those lower down , miss out, but there is no need for them to go unattended.
Just as funding doesn't cove ALL the great volunteer work carried out, the same principles can be applied to breeding of species that don't fall into funding priorities
every NZer who is interested should be able to keep a piece of NZ a 'kakariki'
The chances are Kakariki will survive in urban bush reserves the same as Tui, Kingfisher, fantail, wood pidgen, wax eye...and a good chance, also like sparrows and thrush in the back yards...So every NZer WILL "keep a piece of NZ " The right way, IF DoC REALY WANTS SUCH A THING TO HAPPEN. aand so far they dont...because they dont have the funding that they dont need to to do it...
The same as the do now with exotic sparrows etc _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Hi I'm new here. I decided to sign in after reading this post. I don't have any kakariki, however I would oneday like to. After reading this topic I was appalled. There is no way one should have to kill all of their baby kakarikis. I think that we should start a petition to allow people to beable to breed kakariki and keep them all with out killing ANY. And if one wants to release a bird they could have the bird screened and looked at to see whether it is fit to have this done. I also think that kakariki should be allowed to be kept as pets and or be kept in large colonies if the owner wants to. I think that the killing of baby birds on mass is disgusting. These birds are rare, it doesn't make sense to be killing them.
I think that we should start a petition to end this heinous problem!!
The reason they are killed or released is because it is illegal to sell them. Most other parrot breeders would sell their excess to make a profit or at least break even. Though for the Kakariki keeper at least in NZ they are keep for enjoyment I guess. To change the situation you will have to change their status so they can be bought and sold which would make permits useless though would also encourage a black market in illegally trapped wild birds by people who want to make a quick buck. Its a catch 22.
But with how readily kikes breed, it would not really be profitable to trap wild birds? Breeding own birds would bring in more money.
10 years ago I needed a permit to keep & move a Rainbow Lorikeet. Now permits are not required, I have hundreds that live in the wild around me. I could theoretically trap these wild ones to make a quick dollar but what would be the point? they breed readily enough.
It is the smuggling market that needs to be stopped surely? and not the local market?
Kakariki can be brought and sold, but to those with permits
As a permit holder and what I would consider reasonably informed on the ins and out, still maintain, any species native to the country should be permitted, or administered in some way.
Genic purity, breeding stock etc is of great importance.
A permit is $54 for 3 yrs no big deal...If one is to breed, one needs an aviary regardless of breed of parrot... DoC need it be a bit more creative on min requirements, thu at is also no big deal.
The basic issues re a petition being sucessful and buying and selling both come down to 1 thing...99% of NZers have never heard of a Kakariki let alone what they where once to this country.
Dont take this as cynical, just practical
One has a pettion to acheive something, therefore the petition HAS to be sucesseful 1st time round.
To do that people have to know WHAT a Kakariki IS...they dont.
Athro Guthery in "Alices Restarant" says " tell someone, they will tell others, THEN you will have a movement"
it was not long after he wrote that, we pulled our troops out of 'Nam.
I have done the usual stuff, emailed a few MPs, Ministers, Documentary programs, Forest And Bird, Green peace, WWF.....Kakariki dont have a movenent yet.
Max Newmann who sends the weekly news email for Xtra (a large isp in NZ) did publish us a while back.
Sailorwolf it is ppl like you who we need to "tell someone, they will tell others, ...." At morning tea, a few beers at the m8s place, where ever.
So start writting, telling ppl, and send newspapers here....
Before ANYTHING CAN be achieved ppl Have to Know About Kakariki.
Smuggling...Personally I believe in recent yrs, parrot smuggling in NZ is more profitablre to our Custons/MaF staffs carreer than to those who would try it....NZ is small and our border staff are good. So in NZ it is not really an issue anymore.
Steps _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Steps, do you think that if the DoC reduced the price of the permits that they may become a more popular bird?
$54 for 3yrs? Thats at a rediculus level as it is...no ...then compare $15/yr to the cost of a small aviary...it wouldnt pay for the screws
In your experience/knowledge, do you reckon it might make a difference for permits to be made a once off rather than renewable fee?
No...As mentioned above/ elseware and other Breeders mention. I believe regular inspections, control of the gene pool, an organised breeding program for those species that Gov funding doesnt extend to. I dont propose that Gov funding extend to Kakariki, there are far more at risk species that need it and more of it. That doesnt mean it cant be done privately.....but still under DoC supervision. Conservation is coordination of all aspects...DoC just doesnt consider species like Kakariki as an aspect, except maybe on paper for what thats worth in reality. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
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