Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Breeding Pied Cock To cinnamon = What
Very green on mutations, But I seen an artical from some one, That did say breeding a pied cock bird to a cinnamon hen could likely give you pieds ? Is That so, Because I have two cinnamon hens...And do want a good mix...What do you think...What mix is more likely to give me pieds, With out breeding pied to pied....?.. Thomo
Hi Thomo and to the site. Its good to see another Sydney breeder on the block. It was getting a bit lonely here. If you have the two cinnamon hens and you want to breed pieds you will need a couple of well marked pieds cocks preferable green if you are to get anywere. You will get weaker pieds than the cock birds and splits but its a start. The best way is to get hold of pieds from good coloured birds even if they are not so well mark birds themselves they can still throw good colour. The other way is to go straight to the top and buy black eyed clear birds and put them to your cinnamon hens. But due to limited numbers in Australia these are still very expensive. Cheers Kev
Hi Thomo,
It would depend on what sort of pied you got as there are at least three types of pieds available in the reds, a double factor dominant pied should breed you all single factor pied birds when paired to your cinnamon hen. If your pied is split for cinnamon it will give you some single factor cinnamon pieds also. Both the mottled pied and the recessive pied will only give you all split birds so no visual pieds. A lot of the pied kakarikis seem to be carrying combinations of them all so it can be a bit hard to pick the type. They certainly are a delightful bird to own good luck.
Jenny
I dont believe there are dominant pied Kakariki in Australia and would nearly go as far as suggesting there are NO dominant pieds in the Kakariki anywhere in the world. This a project I have been working on for some time now and to date there has not been a breeder (in Aus) that has been able to prove their pieds are dominant. The confusion comes from breeders who dont fully understand genetics and as such have mistakenly classified recessive pieds as dominants.
To test this theory I have paired the 3 known types of pied (recessive, black eyed clear and mottled) back to normal birds. It is possible to produce offspring from all 3 types that display pied toenails and or the odd pied feather. But it is NOT consistant in any mutation. This would suggest that all 3 mutations are in fact recessive and not dominant.
Hi Kaka-riki, I understand where you are coming from but sometimes it doesn't follow the rules of a recessive mutation either. I also have put pied to normal as all the pieds I had were related and produced pieds from the pairings which were to well marked to be considered splits that is why I was suggesting that there seems to be a lot of birds with combined mutations, it's all a bit tricky and I suggest they all have to be fixed but time will tell and I don't profess to be an expert on the subject with kakarikis as I have only had the pieds for a couple of seasons so there is still a lot to be learned on my part. All I know for sure is that there seems to be a lot of confusion in regards to their inheritance each person tells you something different Cheers Jenny
The one thing to remember is that for a mutation to be dominant ALL offspring should display similar pied markings. If that is not the case then the mutation is more likely to be recessive with several reasons behind the outcome. These may include
1) The normal bird (used in the pairing) may be "split" to a mutation already. That is to say that a "normal" appearing bird can be split to the recessive pied mutation without showing visual markings.
2) The pieds that you are test mating may in fact be "split" to mottled pied as well as displaying markings of the recessive pied. If that is the case the results will be tarnished. Recessive pieds that have been crossed to the motled mutation can throw strange results through many generations. I have obtained an article written by an American breeder 20 years ago that highlights similar problems with birds he had in his care.
It would take many years of ensuring ALL birds used in test matings were pure to really be able to safely state exactly what some of these mutations really are and how they interact. That is the beauty of these little parrots there is still so much to learn.
Kaka-riki, here lies the problem.
Well at least none of us will know with certainty what we will end up with like a lottery thats the fun of it and yes some of my birds seem to have the mottled gene but only double dominant birds will throw 100% pieds and maybe there aren't to many of them around if any. Pied in all species seems to be variable in markings and even more so when combinations are added, hope I can breed some nice ones . I did manage to get pied young from three different hens I just thought the chances of all of them being split was pretty slim. Cheers Jenny
Following is a quote of an article by Terry Martin about pied inheritance in Cockatiels.
The ‘modifiers’ are actually a collection of dominant minor pied genes, recessive minor pied genes and true modifiers. In total there are perhaps 10-15 different ones that can be ‘collected’ together to produce the enormous range of markings we see in different Pied Cockatiels. But they all rely on the one major Recessive Pied gene to give them significant expression. Without the major gene, the modifiers and recessive genes will not even make themselves apparent. The Minor pied genes, on the other hand, show themselves with small degree pied patterns, and it is these that produce the ‘visible splits’. In themselves they only produce a pattern of less than 10% pied markings. These markings are always in the same regions in every species – back of the head and the extremities – wing flights, tail and feet.
Following are pied areas from which I've seen that they can show themselves independent from the others in Kakariki.
1)Feet
2)Tail
3)Wing flights
4)Back of the head and (in the advanced stage) upper part of the chest
5)The area around and between the feets
6)Preengland area
I tend to believe that these areas each represent a minor pied gene. Recessive or dominant. A former post made by Rob strengthens this believe.
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to the site. Its good to see another Sydney breeder on the block. It was getting a bit lonely here. If you have the two cinnamon hens and you want to breed pieds you will need a couple of well marked pieds cocks preferable green if you are to get anywere. You will get weaker pieds than the cock birds and splits but its a start. The best way is to get hold of pieds from good coloured birds even if they are not so well mark birds themselves they can still throw good colour. The other way is to go straight to the top and buy black eyed clear birds and put them to your cinnamon hens. But due to limited numbers in Australia these are still very expensive. Cheers Kev
Jenny
Cheers Jenny
. I did manage to get pied young from three different hens I just thought the chances of all of them being split was pretty slim. Cheers Jenny
