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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Luigi, Not being himself....
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Luigi, Not being himself....

 
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Zoe
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Joined: Feb 28, 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Luigi, Not being himself....

Hiya, I bought two kakarkis, boy and girl about 3/4 weeks ago, they seem settled now. The male-luigi, looks a lot plumper than normal, he is lethargic, wonít fly far and keeps sleeping with his head under his wing, he seems very vulnerable.
This is completely out of character for him.
We have been feeding them seeds, millet, lettuce. More recently we have been more adventurous, feeding them cucumber, tomato, pepper, broccoli stem, and leek.

Any advice would be gratefully received.
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Gee
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject:

Zoe,

Sorry to hear Luigi does not seem to feel well.
first of all, we are no vets here. If you are concerned about his health you should take him to an (avian)vet. That being said, we are always willing to try help you as best as we can. In order to do so we do need some more info.
How old is Luigi? How does his droppings look like? Does he rest/sleep on 2 legs or just one? Birds are pray animals and, in nature, can't afford to show signs of illness.
So once they do things can go from bad to worse quickly. But it could just as well be a matter of going through his first molting period.

The more you tell us, the better our advice. But again... see an avian vet if you are concerned.

Hope he feels well soon!
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Zoe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:26 am    Post subject:

I took him to the vet today, he has been given some antibiotics which seem to be helping, he seems more active now.
He is only 3 months old. His droppings are almost complete liquid, with undigested seed in. Megan, his companion seems fine and her droppings are normal.
He has been putting his head under his wing, sleeping mainly on 2 legs, which is not like him.
I hope the antibiotics work...
Im not sure if its what we are feeding him, we have recently introduced them to more green veg, and they eat alot of millet! Maybe he just over indulged?
Thanks for responding so quick.
Zoe.
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Georg
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject:

Hi,
what's the reason the vet gave him antibiotics for?
Did he make some tests for bacteriaspecies?

What do the eyes of your kakariki look like, are they round-looking?
Is ist possible, that he did eat something, while free flying, cables, tobacco, ...what ever...?

You wrote you own the brids for some weeks, but when do you realize his missbehaviour the first time?

Your vet, does he care for birds often, here in germany maybe 20% of the vets overall realy do know how to help birds?

w3c here Georg
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Gee
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject:

Good to hear he is more active, but keep a close eye on him over the next few days. birds do anything to prevent from seeming ill or weak.

Most vets have no clue about pet birds and giving antibiotics is the easy way out....

To trace bacteria a vet should at least run some (colouring)tests on the droppings.
You can collect droppings by seperating the birds, and cover the bottom of the cage with toiletpaper, newspaper or silver foil.
This way you would not even have to bring the bird to the vet.
Here in the netherlands we can just send the droppings to a lab and have results in less than 24 hours. Maybe you can too?

About the droppings:
Many people falsely conclude that feeding birds greens or fruits will cause diarrhea. The higher water content in the fruits and vegetables will cause a bird to urinate more, which is often mistaken for diarrhea.

A normal bird dropping has three separate components. However, since the bird passes a dropping out of one orifice, the vent, all three portions of the dropping are mixed in the cloaca before being evacuated from the body. The first portion is called the feces, which is solid and worm-like, and may be dark green in color (usually in seed-eaters)

The next portion of the droppings is called the urates. Urates are off-white, cream colored or slightly yellowish, and are opaque.
Urates are the result of digestion and metabolism of proteins in the bird's system

The third portion of a bird's dropping is the urine. This is the watery waste from the kidneys

Undigested seeds in droppings is never a good sign! It could mean parasites, an intestinal infection, proventricular dilation, or a disease of the pancreas or other internal organs.

Dark green /black and unshaped droppings are a sign of birds not eating. specially if the white part turns yellowish. ( weight check?)

Grey, beige or oily droppings with a lot of volume: bad working pancreas

Green, yellow, watery: bacteria, parasites en yeast infection.

Foaming/ smelling: yeast infections.

Foaming/ slimey: Giardia infection ( parasite)

Bloody and foaming: have him checked for coccidiose

This list is far from complete but might help you a bit.
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Zoe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject:

Hi Georg & Gee, I've was told that the vet specialises in exotic birds, she was seeing an African grey after my kaks, so I'm assuming she has good knowledge with birds (though she did ask how i knew which was female and male, which i thought was obvious - a) because the breeder told me b) because Megan is not as colourful - so i thought thatís a bit weird. All she did was check his tummy and his feathers. I brought Megan so she could check her too, in case she has the same problem but not showing, but she didnít even look at her!
I'm not 100% sure why she gave him the antibiotics. She asked me to update her early next week, and if heís not better i have to collect his droppings for 3 consecutive days.

It's strange, itís like he wants to be full of energy, but he tires quickly, and he will sleep with his head in his wing, anywhere he is. At the moment he is asleep on his food bowl! He doesnít seem to sleep for long, just power naps I guess.

I think Luigi's behaviour is starting to have an effect on Megan, she isnít so interested in attention from me or my partner, she isnít flying as much either now, she is also becoming louder when she speaks. She too is voluntarily going back into her cage, without prompt, which is so unusual, they love being out and she is normally a pain to get back in! Not sure if she is getting what Luigi has, or if she is just becoming protective of him or worried for him?

I gave their cage a good clean yesterday as soon as i came back from the vets, changed the sand, food and water and cleaned everything in the hope that Megan won't pick up on anything if itís more sinister then Lugi just over eating or something.

I just checked his droppings, it is completely undigested seeds, a bit of white, and the rest is a browny colour. I think I might start collecting his droppings, so that I have the samples and if he's not better by Monday then I can take them into the vets.

His eyes are round looking. I donít think he ate anything he shouldnít have, I donít tend to let them out of my sight. He first started showing signs of being docile and sleepy about 3 days ago, but I read that once they show signs of illness, that means they are struggling to fight off whatever is wrong with them, so I went straight to the vets.

Gee, you mentioned that it could be that he is moulting for the first time, does it still sound possibleÖ Iím starting to think its more serious?
Iíve called the breeder; he hasnít had anything wrong with his kaks, and is concerned also.

Sorry for the essay, I'm just really worried Sad Thanks both for your advice.
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Gee
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject:

Hi Zoe,

No, I don't think its as simple as a molting period anymore.
And to be honest, i don't think you should wait till early next week to have his droppings checked.
I understand your vets wants to give the antibiotics a chance to do its work but his droppings really worry me. Though the white part still being white is a good sign, I really think early next week is too far away.
But keep in mind.. i am NO vet..


Keep your bird warm. Heat is essential! If your bird has to use his energy to keep his body warm, he won't have enough energy to get his body well again.A birds natural temperature is much higher then ours at anywhere from 103F-106F. Therefore, what often feels warm to us can be chilly to them and this is particularly true in sick birds. try keep his environment near 85-95F. ( above 35C) A bird that is too hot will have very sleek feathers held tightly to the body, will hold its wings (shoulders) slightly away from its body and may pant. If you see any of these signs your bird is much too warm and the environmental temperature should be reduced accordingly

I advise you to seperate the birds and place him into a carrier or hospital cage. A hospital cage can be made from a smaller cage or a small glass fish tank. Remove most perches and pad the bottom with a towel once you have collected some of his droppings on a piece of paper.
I would have those droppings checked today.

Meanwhile you need to provide heat. Heating lamps, heating pads, or hot water bottles do the job well. Set up the hospital cage so that the bird can get away from the heat source if he needs to. You could make a tent by covering part of the hospital cage with a towel.

Check if he is still drinking and keep offering him fluids even if it means you have to "force feed" him.
If so, gently wrap him in a towel and use a syringe to put a few drops of fluid into his mouth at a time.

I hope he is A OK soon!!
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Zoe
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Joined: Feb 28, 2012
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject:

Thanks, the vet that specialises in birds is not working today, but another vet has looked at the notes and has advised to separate them out, but they didnt agree to looking at the droppings today. They said give the medicine a while to work, and to call on Monday.
I'll get another cage and make him confortable in there for the time being.
I'll let you know how i get on, thanks for your help.
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Gee
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject:

Ok Zoe, than monday it is!
Kakariki are tough, they aren't as fragile as budgies and you reacted quick to the changes. He still has a VERY good chance to rescover thanks to you and you loving care! <v>

So don't worry too much and keep us posted.

Dutch greetings,

Gee
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Steptoe
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject:

Couple notes that may or may note relate to the above

I bought two kakarkis,
boy and girl about 3/4 weeks ago, they seem settled now. The male-luigi, looks a lot plumper than normal, he is lethargic, wonít fly far and keeps sleeping with his head under his wing, he seems very vulnerable.

Quote:
Iíve called the breeder; he hasnít had anything wrong with his kaks, and is concerned also.


At the 1st sign..always notify the breeder
Such behavour in captive birds can very oftern be put down to a genetically unhealthy bird in the 1st 3 to 4 months of its life....
is this a young bird.
Breeders, responsable breeders need this info to follow their genetic lines incase something shows up, and if so can cull back several generations...no birds leave her under 4 months, usually 6+ months.

Im very suprised that the 'Avain' vet hasnt taken blood sample to examin under the microscope for bactia....and a furthur sample od droppings, floated out in a crine soln and checked for worm eggs
This latter is described how to in a thread on worms and only requires a cheap childs hobbist type microscope...less than a vet visit.

A vet cant prescribe antibotics unless they know or have a damn good idea as to what bacteria....and anti botics kick in within hours.
Most vets will give the bird an intial booster then prescribe, asking for any note of change within 24 hrs
Regardless most vets wirth these type symptoms will keep the bird over night for pbservation in a special heated cage.

I would have also expected a swab to have been taken from the crop.

It takes about 5 to 10 mins to do both +ve and -ve stained bactia microscope examinations and while those are being done the droppings are being floated in the satuated brine soln waiting for microscope examination....in all these 3 take around 15 mins including results.

I do have a gut feeling that the vet may believe this is a faulty bird..internal heart or liver or sicatca issues or similar..which at the end of the day usually ends with the bird quietly dieing....which is usually the case when things dont add up.
And If the breeder is experiaced, does usual maintance with his flocks, like floating worm eggs/ vinegar/ worm mite maintince and such.....defective bird WILL be the 1st thing that comes into his head.
How do I know this?
I have had kakariki/parrots for near 30 yrs, breed over 1000 kakariki alone in the last 8 yrs
On the otger hand, had an incidence the other day a parrot person got several kakariki off me, both females died a similar way, and he inferded...as a breeder ..defective birds.
Of that 1000 birds we have had around 5 or 6 in that time...defective..none had left our avairies...to have 2 die like that the odds where against it.....turned out he had introduced them to an flight that had Afican grays in, they had breed in there, and the nesting boxes and cgaes had never been cleaned out...the hens went to nest, started sneezing for a few days and died....

I very strongly suggest....If your new bird shows signs of not right, call the breeders immediately....regrdless if u have got attached to it, see if u can get it replaced....BEFORE it gets seriosly sick or dies.
A good breeder will be positive ...a breeder who is not is also most likely to be slack in the maintance of their facities and flocks.
Sry I dont mean to be blunt.

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Zoe
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Joined: Feb 28, 2012
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject:

Luigi is about 3 months old.
At present, the prescribed medicine is working, he is showing signs of improvement and is flying around a bit more.
I have spoken to the breeder, he was very understanding and did offer to give us another, should things go wrong with Luigi.
I'll see how he gets on with the current prescription, thanks for your advice.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:07 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I have spoken to the breeder, he was very understanding and did offer to give us another, should things go wrong with Luigi.

That Im very pleased with...work with your breeder.

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Zoe
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Joined: Feb 28, 2012
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject:

Thanks everyone for your posts and comments. Luigi is much better, we have stopped giving him fresh veg and fruit and have reverted back to a seed mix and a supplement from the vet. We hope to try small amounts of fruit and veg once he has finished his medicine from the vet. Perhaps we tried too much too soon or perhaps not careful enough washing it. Anyway his faeces is back to normal and he is back to his old self to our delight. We also re cleaned the cage just incase we missed something that may have been on it from manufacture.

Again thanks for your helpful advise and knowledgable opinions. So far it has been a pleasure being a member of the forum. Thanks
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