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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Yellow- and orange fronted kakarkies
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Yellow- and orange fronted kakarkies
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject:

Shocked I think I have something to read,only my dictonary is gone with the wind wall
Or my English is not so good Laughing

Hot item Think


Last edited by Peterlimburg on Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject:

Apocrypha wrote:
Online discussions (arguments?) tend to expand at an exponential rate, so I will try to keep it brief (bullet points).

1) DOC makes mistakes, just like private breeders. Unfortunately DOC is held a lot more accountable by public (esp. private breeders).

////////Private breeders dont make the same adviodable clangers DoC has.
U Better check up, who under legistsation DoC is actually NOT accountable to...it is the only Gov Dept that is not
This is the core of the problem.
I also in the legisation DoC has parameters of Consultation...Treaty stuff they have to, anything else the dont have to and dont.

2) Even if private breeders bred up thousands of birds, you can't just hand them over to DOC and say 'take them away'. DOC simply doesn't have the budget to helicopter them all to pest-free islands. So unless someone else can pay..? To that end, perhaps a group of conservation minded kakariki breeders could start such a group and apply for commercial/private funding to organise this. That would be very constructive, and I already know of one group doing specifically that.

//// We dont need to, to populate the Mainland, and we can do it without funding, and little or no cost to DoC, and u yourself amounst many others have had proposals rejected and banged your head against a brick wall...And u also know from your own investagations to get a list of NZ breeders from permet records is blocked by DoC
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-409.html

3) Even if they could be bred up that fast and released on safe islands/pest free mainland areas, this is such an unnaturally rapid population increase that it would be prone to catastrophe. Conservation has moved well beyond the primitive view of "breed'em up and stick'em out there". If a catastrophe did occur (e.g. disease), and wiped them out, I have a feeling that some cynical people would simply turn that into another opportunity to berate DOC.
/////Again this is a simple matter of screened and approved birds and breeders
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-409.html
And as far as concerns to deases..load of crap...
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-557.html


4) It is, always has been, and cleary remains that there is a large gap between breeders and DOC. Certainly some breeders are entrenched in their views, as comments on this forum testify, and DOC is also entrenched in some views. I, and the breeder I referred to earlier, are trying to bridge these gaps. But I can assure you it is difficult with the large amount of mud-slinging and historical hang-overs that many people engage in. .
////Gap between breeders and DoC? there is not one, the gap is between DoC and breeders...we talk/ help DoC but just ignores
What mud slinging?..since when is pionting out a actual suituation consisered mud slinging...So It a moral crime to critise Gov Dept Proceedures?...It is Such concepts but us back into a Fasicist Government...it is those same concepts that created the Holicost.
"Some times we just have to forget the past and move on, like in any functioning relationship" illogical statement.The past is Still with us and nothing has changed..even the Mimister Cant change it !!!!
Your statement is in diect conflict with basic freedom and Democracy!!!

Steptoe often states that private breeders are unofficially consulted. I am not sure exactly what you mean, or why I think you are saying this is a bad thing.
////The GOOD grass roots guys need advice, they ring up on the quiet. I did not state it was bad.
Isn't this the only way they can be consulted? A phonecall to check up on things? How would you like to see the process formalised? Perhaps breeders and/or DOC could keep minutes of all discussions/advice so there is a paper trail we can refer to, rather than heresy of "I think, you think, this is how it happened", etc?
///YES as mentioned above re who DoC CHOOSES to talk To OFFICALLY, it should not be neccessary to be covert, and at risk to DoC grass roots guys.
U yourself admit that one has to step carefully when in DoC.

Evidence is not available through DOC or anywhere as far as I am aware that private breeders knew they were a distinct species well before.
"Maybe if DoC consulted then there would be evidence other than covert conservations with DoC and consevations amounst breeders

The evidence I have (published research) shows that captive raised birds released have significantly greater chances of dieing than wild raised birds in a population.Many reasons. Can't identify food/threats, etc.
///So what, we either illegally release or kill our birds anyway, so even a 5 or 10% survial is a good rate...
What rate does your reasearch show?

There is some research on kakariki (see Mark Dawe's PhD thesis). And I know another student who is about to embark on this project. I continually urge these students to contact people on this site, but they tell me that after reading the forums they feel the environment is too hostile.
Other kakariki breeders have also said this to me. Take from this what you will, I'm just the messenger. Kaka-riki, thanks for the highly unconstructive comments.

/////In that case they shouldnt do research, If a few personal thoughts puts them off quality reseach then they should dig drains instead.they have not attempted to contact anyone, and web servers have logs, who from where, does/looks at what...logs dont match your statement.
Also such research programs have been proposed in detail in these forums and passed on to DoC


Hunters did kill kakariki, but realistically they wouldn't have put a dent in the wild (e.g. Fiordland) populations.

///No not hunters, settlers protecting there crops..and if a small stone population can wipe out hundreds of species, Im sure a larger population of settlers with shot guns can be far more effective...doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
Introduced pests insidiously did the largest part of the damage.
///Wrong, they where so reduced pests then reduced further...BUT didnts wipe them out completely...think it thru?

But Steptoe is correct, these processes are often multi-factorial. I am unsure about your comment that DOC's records of original range are at serious odds with historical works. One always expects some variation in opinion. I didn't think there was any major discrepancy though. Which historical records are you referring to? I'd like to have a look for my current research. Of course given early settlers would have had trouble distinguishing yellows from oranges, there probably is a lot of unknown range areas.
///So u think a settler population who to simply surive in a hostile envioroment didnt note or have the ability to take notice? yet they did in just about every other area of their envotioment? U make a pretty weak assumition. And they recorded and kept diaries.

For examples of bad breeders just ask the breeders who let reds and yellows hybridise, or build below standard aviaries (I've come across them all in my time). The ones who collect parrots as trophies, rather than for animal compassion. Someone needs to regulate these types, as they reflect badly on all breeders. DOC can't do this. Its effort is to be spent conserving animals in the wild.
//// We have permits right? who issues those? who monitors? Who allows to happen...and so often DoC cant tell the diierence them selves and release hybrids (tiri tiri) against private breeder advice...Again this is a area Responsable approved breeders can monitor.
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-409.html
Oh and it is not unkown for an inspection to take place, and the inpector thought a Kakarki was a lizard!!!

Making waves is one thing, but institutional change can take a long time. DOC is a big organisation and can't just change views over night, not the least of which is because they must be accountable, because (as one reads here) they have many critics. Perhaps if private breeders were less critical DOC could trial new innovative ideas without risk of criticism or hindsight 'I told you so's'.
///what a load of illogical rubbish.
So lets not critise DoC right, so now we end up where DoC cant improve, and simple pill ahead blindly, as they often do anyway and cock up...Damn that logic just doesnt work in a Democroacy.
So we can critise any other Gov Dept for change and have it happen but DoC shouldnt be?

As far as I am aware the organge-fronted at Mt Bruce breed. They were the source for Chalky Island (news item).

Thanks for the constructive dialogue Steptoe. I have less to say to kaka-riki, who has just thrown some comments out there with no evidence to back them up.
///Well u realy dont know much about Kaka-riki do u? Oh the chances are u may even have been to Confences where he has been a geust speaker, and read some of his papers...and not even knowq it. Its called opening your mouth to change feet.

"Departments such as Docs (NZ) are the reason so much of our wildlife is going to be lost forever". I'd in fact say that introduced pest species are.

"Lame excuses that captive bred birds can not live in the wild is simply a cop out". No, its a proven fact. I can send you the references and examples.

"I wonder how many of these "passionate workers" have stepped outside the confines of their own comfortable environment and bothered to talk with those people THAT DO commit themselves to preserving wildlife"

I wonder how many of these private breeders have visited DOC to talk about kakariki conservation? The road goes both ways. I know Steptoe does, though in his own playful way sometimes.
///Shame DoC cant talk back thu...offically

"I find it rather offensive that private breeders are considered incapable of assisting with the preservation of bird species". But some of them are considered capable? That is why DOC consults with some of them, and utilises some of them for said breeding.
///Only unoffically, covert, but will not reconise expertise offically
Stupid self defeating situation

"Because THEY CARE about the birds they keep and their reward comes in the form of breeding results. It is NOT simply a 9 to 5 job. So please dont insult the rest of us with those type of comments on this site. It is utter B#$%$T.". I never said breeders weren't also passionate. Of course they are. Just like the grass-root DOC workers. Recognise though that breeders are different to conservationists. Conservationists firstly want the animal conserved in the wild, and don't need a collection of them at home. Breeders want them at home and in the wild. Breeders can also be conservationists (its probably a poor choice of words but I hope it highlights the subtle distinction).
///Private Kakariki breeders dont do it for profit, (there is only expense and no income) they do it in the hope one Day DoC will be forced to come to its sences and partnership capitive/consevatuion efforts

"If NZ is serious and doesn't want to become a laughing stock to the rest of the world in regard to wildlife conservation". But NZ is considered a world-leader in conservation?
////Well a reports has to submit their articule to DoC, before publishing and approval, if they dont or publish something DoC dont like they dont get to go on the next trip and get removed from the freindly list.
So the world sees only DoC releaes
Yes as far as DoC and pest control goes, It is by far the BEST in the world.

You are wholly entitled to your opinion kaka-riki. But most of what you said here is unqualified and not appropriate.
///he and I can quifiy very well

Wyndara - Its not black and white (at what point they bring them into captivity). DOC keep a back-up supply of many native birds at Mt Bruce for security. "aviculture can and will help save this little bird if allowed to do so". I would be more inclined to say 'may help'. Like anything it may or may not work. It is VITALLY important to recognise that such a collaboration is not a small task, and would amount to much more work than just letting breeders breed them up to release them into the wild. At worst that might be unethical if they have a high death rate, at best it is still a very expensive exercise. In the 80s many breeders released kakariki and felt they were doign good for conservation. These birds inevitably ended up dead. How sad =(
///So back that up.

Not so short. Sorry.


//////There have been breeders in the past who make waves, then they have to do rediulious expensive up grades...DoC bulling
An there are others who just dont have the back bone to stand up, simply because to do so places their funding/carreers at risk with DoC..
If DoC didnt intimindate then there would not be a problem. We have discussed this between our selves over coffee.

NOTE: I Dont just sit back and critise!!!
If u good thru these forums u will see that my format is
1/Reseach and Identify the problem.
2/OPiont out the problem(s) and those that also extend from the core problems
3/Reseach and discuss Solutions to both core and secondary problems
4/Provide Well researched practical detailed solutions to these problems
These are Simple, basic, and have been proved to be sucessful in many other feilds.

The issues of DoC mis management and that of coopertion, research support, conservation are totaly indepenant of each other.
Its a shame others lack the maturity to take such concepts on board.

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject:

Apocrypha,

Thank you for the kind words. Not entirely unexpected and what I have come to expect from anyone involved in govt type organisations that are so busy beating their own drums that they have forgotten what the music piece is all about. Perhaps you could explain a couple of things for me.

1. Several emails sent to Docs requesting their current strategies in stabilising and establishing stocks of Kakariki in the wild have gone unanswered. This information was to be used for both articles and talks we have given on Kakariki here in Australia. Sadly, we have instead had to communicate to our audiences that NZ seems totally uninterested in what the rest of the world thinks.

2. You claim that feral pests are the main reason for the decline of the Kakariki in NZ and yet in the same instance it is noted that Rosellas have thrived. When compared in aviary conditions there are remarkable similarities between the two species. I find it hard to believe one can survive amongst the rats and pests yet the other does not. Perhaps that is where aviary bred birds that have been bred in nest boxes would be of added benefit. Surely if nest boxes could be utilised in the wild in locations that these pests could not reach the problem has in the very least been reduced. Likewise aviary bred birds can be raised on diets that suit the area of release, thus reducing the diet problems you mentioned.

3. I was taught that if you believe in something you should "stick to your guns" despite public pressure. The people you mention who have declined to join this site due to the hostile environvent obviously dont have the "passion" to be of any benefit so their decision not to partake in discussions on the site is their loss not ours.

4. In a joint venture with another aviculturist (here in Australia) an offer was made to Docs to provide one of your zoos with several pairs of the remarkable mutations available in the red fronted species of Kakariki. This offer was made with the thought that perhaps putting together such a colourful display of YOUR native bird the general public's awareness of the plight of this bird would be lifted and thus enable Docs to source additional private funding for a breeding program. Surprise, Surprise again nothing. Just in case you think this is a cheap publicity stunt the value of the birds totalled in excess of $25,000.00 (aus) plus the freight charges which we also offered to cover. Interestingly, there is very high percentage of New Zealanders who dont even know what a Kakariki is.

I make no apologies for attacking Docs in the manner of my earlier post. Your country (much like Australia) loves to tell the world about how wonderful their conservation programs are running. As Steps said, what you dont tell everyone about is the stuff ups that occur. When the balance sheet is equalised and we do get to hear about the failures along with the success stories then and only then will you get any real credit for your efforts.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:36 am    Post subject:

I have made the offer before, and do so again.
As stated by Kaka-riki,
"You claim that feral pests are the main reason for the decline of the Kakariki in NZ and yet in the same instance it is noted that Rosellas have thrived. When compared in aviary conditions there are remarkable similarities between the two species. I find it hard to believe one can survive amongst the rats and pests yet the other does not. "

I have offered birds for release (free) for research purposes to estanlish how well kakarik would surive in City native bush reservers And farm bush blocks. I believe I am able also to get sponsership for temp avairies/nesting boxes for soft release opition research.
Also have other breeders willing to do the same.
But the lame excuse "researchers are intimidated by posts here" Thats either DoC intimidation, or just simple lack of backbone or Plain Bull Sh1T.
Or is it that unless they get PAID they will not research a project that has the potentual of far reaching conservation implications?
If so, where is their "passion" ...
I invite them to step up to the mark and we will worlk with them.

We are all prepared to put our time and money where our mouth is, free to DoC and the tax payer.

Instead we have killed around 100 endangered kakariki over the last couple yrs. Needlessly. Oh and another 20 odd Im going have to kill before next breeding season/
Maybe its time to do so on a national curent events program?

Apocrypha,
u meantion your research on release of captive birds not doing well.
Where is it? Is it realy your research u just a matter of reading a few papers, putting others old obsolete observations of others into a paper and publishing that.
Is this now the standard of NZ reseachers?

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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:56 pm    Post subject:

A few more points

1) I'm not affiliated with DOC or any other government department. And I am independent and have also been a breeder.

2) rosellas and sulphur-crested do well because they have evolved with pests and have life-history strategies that cope with mammals (which are present in Australia). Most of the differences are in nest stages and vulnerability

3) DOC and any other sound consverationist in NZ has no interest in mutations. They are not natural and hence don't belong in nature.

4) If people who are trying to create bridges come to this site, and see the negative views boldly put forth, they will leave. They have their own networks, and I know these networks are working to do conservation with kakariki. Currently everyone here (predominmantly internationals) is being excluded. I would suggest this is your loss and not their's. Their work still goes on.

5) Releasing kakarki onto the mainland is immoral and unethical for two reasons

1) It risks spreading disease if the birds haven't been properly disease screened, or you could be releasing historical hybrids. Can everyone here guarantee their birds are genetically pure? I doubt it. Word of mouth so often falls over.

2) I would not be comfortable breeding up birds to release into a slaughter-house with only 5-10% survival. Simply removing next boxes and preventing breeding in the first place seems a much more ethical thing to do. The more birds you release, the more food you provide for rats (stoats aren't a major problem since they don't climb trees so much!!).

From where DOC stands, given the lack of any controls in private breeding (neither amongst breeders, nor DOC being able to monitor properly) then the cost-benefit analysis suggests just pull back all permits and end the private breeding trade. This will happen unless everyone bucks their ideas up.
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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject:

Oh and regarding this

"Apocrypha, u meantion your research on release of captive birds not doing well. Where is it? Is it realy your research u just a matter of reading a few papers, putting others old obsolete observations of others into a paper and publishing that. Is this now the standard of NZ reseachers?"

It was a review article so we could set an agenda for future research prioritities. It was provisionally accepted, and my colleague is planning to start research following from it. But given comments such as these I realised that I didn't really have any support from private breeders, and so basically lost interest. I saw other areas which were more receptive to my contributions and am working there (mainly my rat research). If even some of the people here read those 'obsolete observations' (which my review article drew together so you didn't have to hunt them down individually), then we'd be making progress.

The problem is not what you criticise but how you criticise. Your approaches continually seem to be to villify people and lay blame. Treat the government department as a conspiracy and shout loudly and abusively. If people on this forum could change "DOC is stupid and does things wrong" to "We don't think that was a good idea and we suggest this alternative" then we could make progress.

If things were documented in paper as well, we could stop using heresy in arguments.
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Karen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject:

What I would like to know is how the DoC is progressing with eradicating introduced pests? What is being done?

Kakariki mentioned putting nest boxes high up tree's for birds to utilise which prevents rats from reaching eggs & chicks - this method has been very successful in Australia especially for endangered birds. I know the pest birds could also utilise these nest boxes as well. That is a reason I'd imagine that (appropriately licensed) hunters would be employed to trap & destroy these feral pests.

How many hunters are out trapping/shooting rats/rosella's etc? How many every month do they manage to destroy?

I know that once a feral pest population becomes entrenched it is impossible to permanately remove it. However, hunters have been effective in at least controlling pests to a certain extent.

Apocrypha is correct in saying that it is pointless releasing aviary/captive bred birds when there will be about an 80%+ fatality rate. That is why the pests need to be destroyed - saddens me to say our beautiful Australian parrots are pests but they just don't belong in NZ.

Destruction of pests starts one pest at a time - we have all heard that statement in various forms throughout our lives. It is such a true statement!

If nature reserves can be cleared of pests & kept that way then maybe DoC might be more amenable to releasing birds in those area's.

Alot of people talk about what the problem is, what needs to be done and alot of talk about the pests. What is being done about the pests? I am genuinely interested in the answer to that question. How successful is the pest eradication progressing?

That is probably where alot of effort needs to be made before talking of releasing birds. I couldn't imagine DoC totally refusing to the controlled release of aviary bred birds from suitably approved & noted breeders.

This has been a proven successful undertaking by governments/conservation societies globally. What I imagine their problem would be, why release them to become food. They probably want to get rid of the pests first?

Which again brings me back to my first 2 questions:
What I would like to know is how the DoC is progressing with eradicating introduced pests? What is being done?
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:19 am    Post subject:

Steptoe do you have a society or organisation that all NZ bird keepers and or bird clubs can belong to. sounds to me like you need a united front to represent you guys when it comes to dealing with DOC and any other form of gov dept. over here we have united bird society who represent nearly every bird club in the state. strength in numbers, governments then have to start to listen, as idividuals you dont stand a chance just like bashing your heads against abrick wall.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:46 am    Post subject:

Apocrypha,

The third point in your last post unfortunately HIGHLIGHTS the short sighted views of depts such as Docs and is why the majority of breeders in the rest of the world see them as being nothing more than a bunch of blue collar workers with no insight.

Perhaps you could share with the rest of the bird breeding fraternity exactly where it is MUTATIONS do come from. Unless there is a new type of paint that doesn't wear out I am afraid comments like yours highlight the total lack of knowledge both yourself and Docs have on Kakariki. These mutations you have no interest in are a NATURAL occurence and I have it on very good authority that THERE ARE mutations already in existence in New Zealand both in captivity and in the wild. For someone that is prepared to label the rest of this site ill informed on matters concerning Docs I suggest you talk to a genetics expert before making ridiculous comments like point three. Or is it in fact that you are simply confirming EVERYTHING the rest of this site already thinks about Docs.

I would be more than happy to forward the email address of a world renowned genetics expert who believe it or not is very interested in the Kakariki plight and is currently helping us to solve the puzzle of the orange fronted Kakariki. But then what would he know, he isn't a member of Docs and certainly isn't a New Zealander.

The day Docs opens it's doors and invites the rest of the world to share their knowledge will be the day I for one will take them seriously. Our own Government has finally done just that in regard to Exotics species kept here and it is the only way to move forward.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject:

Karen
Your questions are answered several times in diff parts of forums, just takes a bit of digging. LoL
Quote:
What I would like to know is how the DoC is progressing with eradicating introduced pests? What is being done?

DoC has an impressive pest organsation, with results that are on the leading forfront of anywhere in the world.
"Impressive" is and understatement for the results they have made in resent yrs. The lessons methods they have devaloped on islands are now being used on the mainlabd, are now thinking in terms of expanding these areas with the concept way in the future of the whole country.
Quote:
Apocrypha is correct in saying that it is pointless releasing aviary/captive bred birds when there will be about an 80%+ fatality rate. That is why the pests need to be destroyed - saddens me to say our beautiful Australian parrots are pests but they just don't belong in NZ.

80% loss??? That is a load of rubbish...They are figires taken out of thin air...and hey they release orange kakariki...thats ok.
One moment its a problem next its not, and the arguement that Aussie birds evoled with mammels and are therefore better off is a concept dreamed up out of thin air...one just has to watch a flight of kakariki when a rat/cat/dog/stranger comes around, their flock reaction is the same as other species, including hreds of mammels.
The arguements are all supostion, based on making facts fit the arguement rather than accessing fact to find the truth.
"If nature reserves can be cleared of pests & kept that way then maybe DoC might be more amenable to releasing birds in those area's. "
Consevation Trusts who have been approved to release, at 1st are keen to take birds, but get stonewalled when it comes to DoC approving private breed Kakariki for release.
"why release them to become food. They probably want to get rid of the pests first?"
The assumition/logic of this claim just doesnt work...Other species are released under these cirumstances and these species do not have the same intellegence learning ability as do parrots. There has been no research as far as Kakariki is concerned regarding this , yet there are new flocks being established by imgration/illegal release and they do suprisingly well.
The claim is crap.

wyndara
Quote:
Steptoe do you have a society or organisation that all NZ bird keepers and or bird clubs can belong to. sounds to me like you need a united front to represent you guys when it comes to dealing with DOC

Yes and No
Bird clubs show coincern, but Kakariri are considered sort of a 3rd rate species ..their interest is more in non permittede and exotic birds.
There is Forest and Bird, an organisation that has been very effective in the past with other species (and still is) but when it comes to Kakariki, we hit a brick wall. When they have been told, it is brought up at area meeting, then they send emails out to other breeders if they can take the birds I have to cull....when other breeders are in the same position.
Consevation Trusts who have been approved to release, at 1st are keen to take birds, but get stonewalled when it comes to DoC approving private breed Kakariki for release.

Apocrypha
Quote:
But given comments such as these I realised that I didn't really have any support from private breeders, and so basically lost interest

This reseach was 1st proposed here, considered estentual to Kakariki in the wild...
So u miss the part where we will supply birds free, help out, most prob able to get sponsership for avaiaies /nesting boxes for such a project.
Support from private breeders would be unquestionable
I have heard some lame excuses but that is one that takes the cake.

Quote:
Treat the government department as a conspiracy and shout loudly and abusively. If people on this forum could change "DOC is stupid and does things wrong" to "We don't think that was a good idea and we suggest this alternative" then we could make progress.

And u think that has not been done, many times over the last 30 /40 yrs?
Result...nil ...The gammer makes no difference historically...and if gammer matters..and if the concepts are igored because of it...thats in realy small minded and petty.

Quote:
1) I'm not affiliated with DOC or any other government department. And I am independent and have also been a breeder.

Yet u speak and make statements on behalf of DoC?? or at least make them in such a manner as to appear to do so?

Quote:
2) rosellas and sulphur-crested do well because they have evolved with pests and have life-history strategies that cope with mammals (which are present in Australia). Most of the differences are in nest stages and vulnerability

Pure assumption...covered in coments above...there is nothing to back up such a claim...even u see the need and proposed a need for research in this area.

Quote:
3) DOC and any other sound consverationist in NZ has no interest in mutations. They are not natural and hence don't belong in nature.

As Kaka-riki states above they do occur in nature and when they do in other species DoC goes to great efforts to protect such occuarances, as happend resently with a Kea (think was a kea)
And again one just has to go to to own pics in your gallery to see wild mutations...that DoC consisder hybrids (!)
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?set_albumName=Enderby-Island&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
yet as discussed in these forum elsware a gentics expert confirms them as mutations.
While we are on YOUR gallery
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?set_albumName=album02&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Yes you supplied birds to a leading retailer, and these then, with your knowledge, many where then illegally released. These are illegal hybrids and u didnt even know?....And u claim to know about Kakariki.? And now u no longer have Kakariki...what happened to the remaining? Where they destoried as they are meant to be?
Oh dont consider this an attack...its just a simple pionting out a few facts...nothing wrong with the truth, or is there?

Quote:
5) Releasing kakarki onto the mainland is immoral and unethical for two reasons

Quote:
1) It risks spreading disease if the birds haven't been properly disease screened, or you could be releasing historical hybrids. Can everyone here guarantee their birds are genetically pure? I doubt it. Word of mouth so often falls over.

Hence our proposal of screening, a if such a risk, why can exotic game birds releasesed freely?
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-557.html
Quote:
2) I would not be comfortable breeding up birds to release into a slaughter-house with only 5-10%

Where did that figire come from? Oh thats right I posted those, as an assumption...to u your statement that your research showed low surival rate...I asked what your reseaech showeed...u havnt suppied any reseaerch or your own figures, but on the other hand have proposed such research for the future.
Quote:
From where DOC stands, given the lack of any controls in private breeding (neither amongst breeders, nor DOC being able to monitor properly)

As stated in these forums, this is an issue that we critise DoC for AND propose a very low budget, working sol'n.
Quote:
then the cost-benefit analysis suggests just pull back all permits and end the private breeding trade. This will happen unless everyone bucks their ideas up.

Yeah most proberly...Im glad that you agree with our comments re DoC intimidation/ threats etc when ppl simply piont out what is wrong in a democatatic society. Confirms our private conservations over a coffee
So we agree on DoC intimidation.

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Karen
Snr Member
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Joined: Nov 12, 2005
Posts: 221

PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Thanks Steps, I of course was speaking from ignorance as I have no idea what steps DoC are taking and was presuming that aviary bred birds don't survive as well as wild birds.
So if DoC have such a great success at eradicating pests, then what possible excuse can they really have for not releasing Kakariki - even aviary bred ones? What are they afraid of? That they have to admit that private breeders might actually be right? Laughing
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gecko
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:22 pm    Post subject:

[
Quote:
So if DoC have such a great success at eradicating pests, then what possible excuse can they really have for not releasing Kakariki


DoC do have great sucess in eradicating pests mainly on our many offshore islands and they do release Kakariki there. The mainland is a different story. Eradication is seldom achieved due to reinvasion and huge public opposition to the use of the most effective form of pest control we have 1080. The opposition I must say is generally from hunters that would prefer to see NZ as a game park and the ill informed

As for hunters/trappers making a decent impact on pest numbers, is only practical for small reserves and as a suppliment to poisioning. [/quote]
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noahs_ark
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Joined: May 06, 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject:

Hi. I actually agree with the majority of what apocrypha is saying. NZ DOC is one of the leaders when it comes to conservation, unfortunately it has so many high priority endangered species that it cannot deal with all at once due to restraints in resources, both funding and labour. NZ for its small size has the largest number of endangered species in the world. They already rely on many voluntary organisations for the majority of their work. There is no point in constantly dogging DOC you have to remain positive and keep working away at them and eventually something will happen. Working WITH DOC is going to be the key and that is not going to happen with so much negativity going around.
I have seen and heard Kakriki in the wild and the main reason they have not been succesful in the wild is that they are so damn noisy, especially at the nest! Not having evolved with mammal predators they have learnt to hide well in old logs away from their main predators that they have evolved with: other birds. As you probably know bird predators are more visual than auditory hunters so Kaks hide well but have had no need to be quiet. With our main predators now mammals with good hearing Kaks along with many other of our NZ birds have and are being decimated in the wild. I was walking through an offshore island bush and up ahead (a good 50m or more) I heard this unearthly racket sounding like a huge bird fight! Rounding the corner it was a adult Kak feeding 4 chicks! They were extremely noisy and only about 1m off the ground. For any mammal: cat, stoat, rat, etc they would have been an easy feed. Long story short it is very likely Kaks wouldn't survive in the urban NZ, or in most areas because of that reason. Gecko, your bush sounds beautiful and is likely it Kaks could be present in there, keep trying to get them there, it may also depend on the size of the bush as to what will survive there. I wish you luck and I'm sure if you keep trying with DOC you will eventually get some results. DOC is a government institution so it is a bit like evolution: it takes a long time to make any significant changes...a LONG time. How about getting in with them, become a voluntary worker so you can get the inside scoops instead of moaning about how useless they are from the outside looking in. From there you can work from the inside into getting things done for the Kaks. Sorry for the length of this.
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Kaka-riki
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject:

Hi Noahs Ark,

While I can understand your comments that Doc's struggles due to the high work loads placed on the them, you can hardly blame the rest of the world for raising their eyebrows. You have admitted that New Zealand has the highest level of endangered species so my first question would be WHO ALLOWED THAT TO HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. If a Dept is given the task of maintaining the wildlife numbers in their country I dont think it looks particularly good on their record to state they dont have the funds to turn things around. Either the Dept. is not doing their job and simply wasting funds OR they need to raise the level of their collective voices to the Government so that they can get the job done. It is a cop out to simply lay the blame at the feet of others.

We have several breeding programs here in Australia where private breeders are working alongside the Govt Depts in an effort to save some of our native birds. I just cant get my head around WHY your Docs cant get together will some of your Kakariki breeders and set up a similar program.

I have read with interest the postings in regard to pest control in New Zealand. Working at a Govt facility which has it's fair share of rodent problems I recently became involved in a program to reduce these feral pests. The list included pigeons, rats, mice, starlings and especially feral cats. The problem is that with so many staff working at the site there was a minority of people who protested that any form of cruelty toward these pests was not an option. The answer was found in modern technology. There is a company here in Australia that manufactures machines that emit sound waves. These sounds can be set in a manner that are only audible to those pests you want to hear them. We have a machine mounted on the roof of the highest building that emits a sound similar to that of an eagle. This has stopped the pigeons and starlings from coming within a 2 km range of the site. In a similar way machines are placed around the perimeter to prevent mice and rats from entering. The cats are likewise eliminated by using a signal that drives them crazy if they cross the beam. So the result is the site is pest free. These machines are not cheap but they do work. I have tested them on the Kakariki and they have no effect whatsoever on them as the sound waves are set to only deter those pests you want removed.

My arguement will always be that it is easy to blame others for one's lack of results. I feel sure that if Docs was really keen to do something constructive they could come to this site and WORK with the rest of the world in making sure Kakariki survive in New Zealand. I feel sure Steptoe would w3c their participation with open arms and I for one would be very interested in reading exactly where their priorities lie in regard to the preservation of this wonderful little parrot.
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Steptoe
Site Admin
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 4550

PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject:

Lets put things back into Perspective

Quote:
There is no point in constantly dogging DOC you have to remain positive and keep working away at them and eventually something will happen

The piont is..u can work with DoC, and for DoC...and even after 20/30 yrs Nothing happens, except a few answers that mean nothing from The Minisiter....The arguement historically doesnt hold water, and ther is nothing to so it will in the futute.

Quote:
that is not going to happen with so much negativity going around
.

"Negativity"(?)
To make working for reintoduction proposals...and recieve no answer
To Prospose areas of research, with voluntary support of birds, nesting boxes, ands be ignored....that negative?
To propose trial mass introduction of approved captive birds in mainland areas...that negative?
To propose, the use of capitive birds for Conservation Projects, who already have approval to release but cant get birds,... that negative?
Yes I do have to agree on the negativity, it just who is being negiative is the question

Quote:
They were extremely noisy and only about 1m off the ground. For any mammal: cat, stoat, rat, etc they would have been an easy feed. Long story short it is very likely Kaks wouldn't survive in the urban NZ, or in most areas because of that reason.


"it is very likely Kaks wouldn't survive"
Or in other words, it is assumed, yet there are areas that the do surivive.
This a a negative assumption, that with the support of 'approved private breeders' and mass introductions could very well be proved wrong.
Is this concept negative?

We in these forums, and proposals to DoC by many have taken a postive approach, with full understanding of limited DoC budgets.

To come up with, 1/2 baked arguements on no or at best research on very that is non existant, and/or based on very limited and protected small populations, and often simple Assumptions..
As to why it can not be done as Apocrypha has done...THAT is negiative

So lets say, DoC approached 2 or 3 local breeders in Sth Auckland, (we have tried for many yrs with no response from DoC) who have good kakariki stock...and said "look instead of killing your birds, lets release them in a city park this yr (eg Kirks bush Papakura) and see what happens"
"Then next yr lets release in a bigger city researve...Totara park, and see what happens"
"And the following yr, release in the Hunua, (where intensive pest control is taking place and other endangered bird species are suriviving well. and see what happens"
The order of locations is not important, what is important is there is nothing to loose, no cost to DoC, and REAL information can be established where none exists to date.
Its as simple as that...

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