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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Blue mutation
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Blue mutation
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Blue mutation

I did some experiments with Photoshop. This is how a possible blue mutation would look like. To be perfectly clear, this is an edited pic.


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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject:

Im not sure if I like that shade of colour on a kakariki...thu it would be great to eventually to see such a mutation
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Cattscapes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject:

Hi Guys just wondering if there have been any updates on the existance of any blue birds yet. We are patiently waiting and hoping. Cheers Kevin
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Peter
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:44 am    Post subject:

No, nothing at all on this side of the planet.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:08 am    Post subject:

I have had sort so tempory results.
When Im selecting birds in th holding flights, to ID thenm from the out side I use a water pistel with red food colouring....this does give sort of a dark blueish mottled effect....but it is only tempory...

:fun:
Sry couldnt resist Whistle

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:26 am    Post subject:

naughty boys
for a moment I thought it was a "breaking news" thread

Peter and I have a good friend (actually more friend of mine than his, I'm a more popular guy, you know) that has been breeding blue kakariki since 2007, but this is a secret Silenced
He was breeding as well the opaline mutation.
By the way... probably I will see him next saturday signlol

There used to be another guy claiming a friend of his had blue kakariki as well, but he sent me that photoshop picture Peter has on his website. When I told him that picture was actually Peter's work simply to explain about pigments... he started to retreat but never admitted he made a mistake. Funny guy.

Honestly no... no news about new mutations. There's a picture I received of a yellow fronted, but to me it looks like a simple pied. It's said it's an opaline mutation, but funnily who told me about it, told me it's autosomal recessive.
Rumors...



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Cattscapes
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject:

Pabloc
Doe's your friend have some photos to back him up? Maybe if your seeing him this weekend you could get some photos. He should have a few if he has been breeding them for 2 years. No names or locations are required. Cheers Kev
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:50 pm    Post subject:

hi kev!
sorry, i was bieing sarcastic
not even my friend

he is a belgian living in Portugal, but he has the bad habit of lying
he acts as wholesaler as well, but his method is to watch ads at vogelarena.com and offer those blrds as ifhe already had them

he even offered me kikes from Rob Opbergen but I contccted Rob and he told me Lucas never bought him anything.

he wont send pics signlol

PS: Kev, you have a PM

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject:

Here some pics from a Dutch breeder. A German breeder told me by email, like Pablo mentioned, that it is of a autosomal recessive nature.





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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:06 am    Post subject:

I have a basic 'libarary' of acvived documents of ealy settlers in NZ about kakariki, and believe Peters is far more extensive in his reasearch than mine.
The general 'theme' re wild mutations is that they where extremely common in flocks pre 1900....
But I cannot remember or find anything on a blue mutation being mentioned...or anything that may relate to such possiblity.

Im rather bloody minded about most things, unless I have seen, or done myself, or to a lesser degree been told 1st hand by people I know of high integrety...I tend to put in the BS folder...urban rumour.

Like the red meantioned and photos on this web site...even with photos I still remained sceptical as I did not at that time know the person.
It was not till I went to Australia and actually saw the kakariki I could actually claim it existed.
It was the same person at the same time, who had acquired a very scruffy, ill health bluish kakariki...also pics on this web site...which I have seen.
It died not long afterwards our veiwing it.
In all honesty..yes it looked like a genuine blue mutation, but I do have to question as to was this caused by some sort of illness or factor?
My knowledge doesnt go far enough as to if sickness , ill health or some other factor could have caused the colouring.
I can say, and mean no disrespect....If I got a pied or similar, washed (not sprayed) it in food colouring or maybe some sort of dye that broke down the oils and structure of the feathers, the bird would look just like the pics and the one I saw.
There are some other unrealed factors since then that Catts and i have corosponded on a while back that also could relate to a strong sence of doubt... too many coinidences.
It would be nice to have my assumed conclusions to be wrong

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Peter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject:

In feathers of the structual type there are 3 elements present which are responsible for the final color. Psittacin(red and/or yellow pigments), melanin (black pigments) and featherstructure (blue). Together they form the green colouring. Most of the feathers on the body are of the structual type.
In feathers of the ornamental type there are 2 elements present. Psittacin red and/or yellow) and mellanin (black pigments). These feathers are mainly found on the head. Red or yellow crown.

A genuine blue mutation lacks the psittacin pigments (red and/or yellow). Structual feathers will look blue. Ornamental feathers will look white, greyish white or grey depending on the amount of mellanin present in the feather.
A genuine Aqua mutation has a 50% loss off psittacin. As a result it has a seagreen appearance. The crown of a red will look orange. Those of a yellow will look pale yellow.
A genuine Turquoise mutation has a irregular loss of psittacin (red and/or yellow). Psittacin loss will vary from 80-90% on the body to 50-60% on the wings. The crown of a red will have a light pink shade.


Steptoe wrote:
But I cannot remember or find anything on a blue mutation being mentioned...or anything that may relate to such possiblity.


Quote Buller: No. 2 is a beautiful instance of cyanism. The entire plumage of the cheeks, throat, and underparts is a delicate marine-blue, or isabelline, the feathers on the lower parts and sides of the body narrowly edged with dusky; supplying the place of crimson on the vertex and ear-coverts is a pale yellowish or greyish brown; the rest of the upper surface is a deeper isabelline, varied with a still darker shade of blue, and with the feathers more distinctly margined with dusky; there are no uropygial spots; the quills are marked with ultramarine as in ordinary specimens; the tail-feathers have greenish reflections, with a wash of blue down the outer vane of the lateral ones, the under surface of wings and tail being dusky brown. Bill and feet of the normal colours. This is the Parrakeet mentioned by Prof. Hutton as the “blue variety from Southland.”

I tend to suppose this bird corresponded with a genuine Turquoise mutation.



Steptoe wrote:

In all honesty..yes it looked like a genuine blue mutation, but I do have to question as to was this caused by some sort of illness or factor?


That bird differed with the descriptions of blue mutations as mentioned above because all bodyfeathers were affected except the crown. So, no mutation. Malnutrition is a possibility.


- Arginine deficiency may cause wing feathers to curl.

- A change in feather color green to yellow is usually caused by a loss of structural blue color which may be associated with essential amino acid deficiencies. Feather color may change blue to black, green to gray to black that are sick or malnourished. Color change is associated with altered keratin structure in the spongy layers that prevent normal light scattering. Melanin granules in the middle of the feather if present would absorb all wave length of light. Giving the visual effect of black.

- Achromatosis (normal color of feathers change to another color) is caused by a variety of nutritional deficiencies in different species. During growth choline, riboflavin, lysine are deficient. Example: cockatiels will grow yellow or white feathers, when they should be gray feathers. Timneh & african grey's will have red feathers when they should have gray feathers

- Copper deficiency can interfere with melanin production and cause dark colored feathers to become lighter.

- The appearance of malformed; broken; bent; dirty; stained or unusually colored
feather should be considered abnormal. Possible cause: organopathy, toxins, malnutrition, bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites (blood or intestinal), boredom, anxiety, lack of sleep, psychosis, sexual frustration, hormonal, molting abnormalities.

- Deficiencies in the B vitamins riboflavin, have been associated with abnormal pigmentation of cockateils.


Source: http://www.articlesbase.com/pets-articles/feather-disorders-in-our-pet-parrots-726620.html
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:38 am    Post subject:

Thanks Peter.....
I knew you would be able to expand on my questions/ doubts
From the info and descriptions above.

Also such diet defiiencies would result in a sickly looking bird, in poor health and most proberly a shortened life span....Which it was.

Quote:
That bird differed with the descriptions of blue mutations as mentioned above because all bodyfeathers were affected except the crown. So, no mutation. Malnutrition is a possibility.


Sadly I still have to agree and come to that conclusion.

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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject:

<v> <v> <v> Yes, no bleu mutation at all <v> <v> <v>
I'm sorry for the mutation breeders, but if there come one, it's the final dead of the wildcolors.

P.s. it's my opinion

pabloc wrote:

he even offered me kikes from Rob Opbergen but I contccted Rob and he told me Lucas never bought him anything.

he wont send pics signlol

PS: Kev, you have a PM


Look and watch, this is a Rob van Opbergen bird and sits in my avary Laughing .


He can pair common year with some of my hens, and some hens can pair with my males. Both bloodlines will come together.
I wonder what is coming out .
s05 Think Think Think Think Think Think

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:48 am    Post subject:

It is my understanding kakariki mutations where sort out in the mid to late 1800s because mutations where very common in flocks.
It tended to be these birds that where mainly of special interest and where exported....these I believe went mainly to Belgium and Germany...Not to Britain as one would have expected considering early colonisation of NZ
IF Buller is correct (Peters quote above) and Buller in my opinion was very correct in his documentation /research, AND A blue mutaion was included, The gene would be somewhere in in the Belgian or German blood line history. IF it survived.
A lot of "IFs"

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:04 pm    Post subject:

Peter,

that is not nice signlol
Now I'm jealous Not talking and won't invite you to my birthday party Shame on you
Nevertheless... awesome bird Peter, I hope it yields good breeding results for you.

Quote:
I'm sorry for the mutation breeders, but if there come one, it's the final dead of the wildcolors.

I'm not sorry for the mutation breeders, I mean... the sloppy ones.
But nevertheless... if you take a look at budgies, cockatiesl, lovebirds... wildcolor is already finished.
And kakariki, I visited a fair this weekend, and +90% were goldcheck hybrids already, so I don't know if a new mutation can really harm kakariki more than has been done.

In fact I hope the opposite might happen. I think maybe if a new mutation shows up, breeders become more aware and at least some more serious breeders get attracted to the species.
If you look at agapornis, indeed... many sloppy breeders are still breeding hybrids, transmutations, etc... but on the other hand, the species became more popular and some more breeders are getting serious at it, and more dedicated.
Even neophemas and catharinas (lineolated) people is starting studygroups and along with "lazy" breeders, some people is getting serious at it. Same with cockatiels.

Few weeks ago an old time breeder, in a Spanish forum, in a thread about albino cockatiels said: "if cockatiels were white, and we had a mutation consisting of a grey bird, with yellow head and orange cheeks, people would be wanting that bird and paying lots of money".
Words of wisdom.

The only problem that I see is that probably in the beginning the blue mutation will be really expensive, so maybe by the time it's available for some of us that are concerned about breeding properly, the damage will be already done.
I just hope the mutation comes to good hands soon enough, like some cockatiel mutations that Thierry Duliere is working on.

Steps, interesting point of view. I hope you are right.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers / Pablo

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