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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - advice please!!
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advice please!!
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nikki87
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Joined: Mar 22, 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:37 am    Post subject: advice please!!

i have a 4 weeks old kak and iv had a look at it to check it over but im very worried about his leg. It sticks out to the side he can tuck it under but it doesnt look right was wondering if this is normal?
also they are on very good diet as i follow the diet on this forum and other chick is fine? PLEASE HELP
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject:

Sounds like leg splay....
This ca be caused by serval things
1/lack of Ca and /or Phosphorus (phposphorus is required to absorb the Ca.)
2/lack of grip on a slippery surface.
3/Incorrect handling
4/Coming out of the nest early, falling
5/A combination of 1/ and any of the others.

Basically it is either a deformity or deformaty caused by a hip dislocation.

The sad part...
If we get any deformed birds...less than 1%.. we put them down.
If dislocated, a vet can operate to move the ligament around to the righ side of the leg then splint the leg....this is very expensive.

It is very tuff when happens to a 1st time or inexperianced breeder...but if one is breeding any animal..including our own children, there always is a risk, and this has to be accepted.
Hope this is not to blunt for you....I do know how you feel.

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Gee
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject:

nikki,

You could try to tie both the legs together for a little while. ( traction)
use removable rings and some small rubber.

like this:
http://www.parkietenfreak.nl/z-spreidpoten.php
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject:

Would really like to see how that works out.....
Cross fingers it works

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nikki87
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:04 am    Post subject:

hi guys,
i took him to a vet and unfortunatly the best thing for him was putting him to sleep. as the vet thinks that the mum sat on him a bit to rough and his hip was dislocated and also the elbow joint was broke :'( so very sad news! im concerned about the other baby that is in with her his legs are fine at the moment ( i haven't got him out as he only 3 week olds) , so please could i have some advice.
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Gee
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject:

Sorry to hear you had to let him be put to sleep, sad... Sad

I have no advice on how to prevent this to happen to the other chick.
none other than to keep a good eye on the little one the next few weeks.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

How big is the nesting box may I ask?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:56 am    Post subject:

Quote:
as the vet thinks that the mum sat on hima bit to rough

I belive that sort of thing is urban myth...maybe with large cockatoo parrots but not small parrots....
It could happen if the hen is disturbed unexpectantlly in a big way....but the usual behavour of a hen is not panic even then, but rather stay with the chicks and if moves away does so very reluctantly.
Or the nesting box is deep (700 to 1m ) with no wire ladder and the hen has to drop to the bottom.

Quote:
and his hip was dislocated and also the elbow joint was broke

Elbow broke? thats unusual... the elbow gets dislocated and the tendon moves around to the other side of the bone....that makes it feel as if broken because lack of any tension when examining...dislocated hip...
Both of these are classic

Quote:
Sounds like leg splay....
This ca be caused by serval things
1/lack of Ca and /or Phosphorus (phposphorus is required to absorb the Ca.)
2/lack of grip on a slippery surface.
3/Incorrect handling
4/Coming out of the nest early, falling
5/A combination of 1/ and any of the others.

2/ is common in hand reared, an where chicks have to use their legs early...legs are one of the last parts of the body to devalope....hence inexperianced playing/hand feeding/handling is major cause....and common in poutry and quail rearing..where incorrect surfaces are used.

Very rare is simply a defective hatched chick...not common but if all the above is eliminated ...yes....thu 1/ in the 6 months leading upto going to nest is very likely to have an influence.

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nikki87
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:32 am    Post subject:

i think the vet was wrong in saying he mum had laid on him to hard as the other chick is fine. I dont think his elbow was broken either but unfortunatly im not a vet im my oppinion i think it was deformed but as im not hand rearing the birds and i only check on them now and again as i dont wont to upset the parents i had only just noticed his leg. I'm not sure on weather it was splay as the whole leg looked back to front but as i say im not a vet Sad . The other chicks legs are both fine and he seems to sit fine iv left him in with parents as i believe that is the best way for them to be raised unless something goes wrong i.e death of parents. I like to thank you all for you comments and help
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:33 am    Post subject:

Dont be to hard on the vet...99% of vets have very little training in birds...
Thu a professional vet will tell u this, and say he "suspects ....... or something along those lines has happened"

Something has happened...and from the pics its dislocation in hips and/or the ligament in the knee has flicked over to the wrong side of the leg.
Could have been a mouse panic parents in the middle of the night, or a thunderstom...
Whatever...the important thing to watch for, is future generations, this happening consistantly......or in other words, due to limitation of breeding stocks in capitivity, this is not a genteic trend .

Inbreeding, back breeding is fine, but any responsable breeder keeps a very close eye out for defects, and if a line shows anything , even down 3.4 or .5 generations, they ID the line back, and cull that line out.

Sounds tuff, but this is what happens in nature, which protects the species .
The current popular thought in concervation PHd therorists is a small population (like the NZ black Robin, 5 birds left) will eventually die out because of lack of gene pool......well the efforts by DoC in NZ to restablish in the wild have been quite sussessful....in spite of the PHd therorists and their calculators.

There is so much in breeding birds in captivity, that we have to 'flick' our minds back to the wild and consider "If this was in the wild, what would common sence tell me"

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Stumbler
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:11 pm    Post subject:

Hi Nikki

Just wondering Think , if your bird is only 4 weeks old I guess it might be still in the nest?, if not and it has recently emerged and been learning to fly then the injuries you descibe sound similar to what I have seen with young birds.
young birds often don't roost in the best places in an aviary and can get night fright by owls who grab them by the legs/foot and pin them to the wire where they usually bugger their leg and have to be put-down.
There is often no other damage to the bird, no feather loss etc and just leaves a crippled bird in the morning.

Stblr
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Freddie
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:19 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
try to tie both the legs together for a little while. ( traction)
use removable rings and some small rubber.

Interesting method -Gee!

Steps - your 1-5 list are probably the main possibilityīs, although nr2-hand rearing is np if u do it correctly - I do it all the time, np!

Quote:
Inbreeding, back breeding is fine, but any responsable breeder keeps a very close eye out for defects, and if a line shows anything , even down 3.4 or .5 generations, they ID the line back, and cull that line out.

Well, Inbreeding vs. outcrossing to new blood while saving birds and acquireing new birds with the desirable traitīs - nikki, itīs up to u wich way u want to go, look 4 information and make your own decision.
Also, there are very few breeders that (have the gutīs or what ever) to cull chicks at all.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
outcrossing to new blood

And how wide is the orginal 'new blood' whwn was the last time any 'new blood was ever introduced to you country,
Considering the limitations of exports of native birds ended around 100 yrs ago and only lasted a coyuple decades in very limited numbers in the 1st place.
In real practical terms ..'unrelatd' or 'outbreeding ' is a myth.

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Freddie
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
And how wide is the orginal 'new blood' whwn was the last time any 'new blood was ever introduced to you country,
Considering the limitations of exports of native birds ended around 100 yrs ago and only lasted a coyuple decades in very limited numbers in the 1st place.
In real practical terms ..'unrelatd' or 'outbreeding ' is a myth.


-No, the gene pool is probably not so big in any captive spp., but I do what I can to maximize it in my birds (travel far to by birds from different places, check how they are related with help from ring/bands-register, allways band my own chicks, never breed sibblings-parants-grandparants with each other, get as mutch info from the seller as possible, when keeping a chick - then I exchange parantbirds 4 new birds (thats wy I donīt agree that all breeding-pairs that are 4 sale, are something suspicious with - any one that wants a good breedingpair can have it frome me if u just wait till I swich blood to new birds))

It would be great to do gene-tests on different birds to see wich once arenīt closley related, but itīs presumably a costly thing - in the future though?
If I could get some from NZ would obviously be the best, but since thouse in charge think its better to kill excessive/superfluous birds of in their hundreds...
Iīd like to get a hold on some of the chicks u cull out - Steps.
-Yes I know, dream on...
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:59 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
If I could get some from NZ would obviously be the best,

And you think that our capitive or even wild gene pool is that big?
Kararki are and endangered species...and reds are damn near extinct on the mainlands

If you think small gene pools are an issue..do a bit of research on the kakapo and takahi and nz black robin....the black robin has been reserected from only 5 birds and 1 female...kakapo and takahi where considere extint up to a few years ago.
Weka are near wipped out, a few isolated colonies are slowly recovering.
OH I can go one and on , not just bird species , and that just in NZ.

If back breeding, inbreeding in capitivity is managed in the same way as nature looks after it..not an issue...inspite of the theroists up in their white towers, Conservationists, DoC ..who I do give a hard time..and private breeds 'in the know' have and are proving them very wrong.

We have huge numbers of endanged species populations introduced over many decades on lots of isolated islands, growing from very small genetic pools, extremely successfully...Islands that are no more than over grown avaireies.

We have very experianced breeder on this web site...offshore from NZ who have been practicing in parrell...yet independant... what out DoC and conservation projects have been doing for years ..the issue is they keep their mouth shut because of old wives tales, people who believe them and people who do not manage their capitive generations as they should.

And there is nothing wrong with commerialism in breeding birds, espec endangered species...just so happens the only species of animals that become endangered is because they are not , or not allowed to become commerialy viable...Or put another way , a commerially viable species economically is not allowed to become endangered...cows, sheep, pigs, hens, turkeys, pheasnt....they are capitive breed for profit...or put more simply...farmed.

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Freddie
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:26 am    Post subject:

Quote:
And you think that our capitive or even wild gene pool is that big?

Sadly - No, just different from ourīs.

Quote:
....the black robin has been reserected from only 5 birds and 1 female...etc.

Yes of course, no other option.

Quote:
there is nothing wrong with commerialism in breeding birds

Nothing wrong with that (if u look 4 the wellbeing of the birds at the same time).


How are the two other chicks comming on?
Hope u donīt run into any more trouble nikki - Good luck!
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