Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: choosing a breeding pair
i know there are a lot of knowledgable people here regarging genetics and i could use some advice.
I had a pair of non related yellow (red fronted) with black eyes that bred well last year and produced some really nice babies in 2 clutches. 2 out of the 10 babies had small amount of green on, one around the eyes and the other has 2 feathers above the tail (i kept this bird and have paired her with a pied) all the others had no green, like the dad. On close inspection i discovered the mum has 2 off coloured feathers above her tail but they are not really very green just sort of dirty yellow colour. I also kept a male and a female who are both really nice birds, friendly, chatty and very much like their dad.
The mum is such a good mother and missing her mate so im looking for another mate for her and was thinking as she has these 2 odd feathers maybe i should pair her with a pied.... and not another yellow....although most of her babies have been pure yellow (except the red bits) so maybe the odd green feather doesnt matter
The next bit of advice is about the yellow babies i kept..... i was going to look for another male and female to pair each of them with...... but its been surgested that i could pair them together..... i have read some bits on here and on other bird sites about line breeding but cant find anything about pairing siblings..... it sounds totally wrong...... but they are both nice birds and call to each other constantly they are from different clutches and have never been kept together but i think they would bond easily...... So again any advice on this one would be helpfull
Posted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: BOTH ANSWERS ARE RIGHT AND WRONG
Many people belive inbreeding is the best or worst thing you can do. Two divided camps. I have my first brother sister pair on eggs now so, i can find out for myself in a couple of months. Strong opinions on both sides of the question. I lean toward studied inbreeding but, it's just my view not advice.
Many people belive inbreeding is the best or worst thing you can do
And rightly so to....
The reason for that is 99.9% of breeders, be it birds dogs whatever, do not keep an eye out for defective birds...which can show up even months /a yr or so after leaving the nest....
Then if something is wrong be preapred to take out the whole blood line going back several generations..
Also every 2 or 3 generations, new blod should be introduced, preferably going back to pure wild blood line.
Also think very carefully thru aquiring so called unrelated....
The intial populations exported from NZ pre early 1900s where few in number..to several locations around the world...this means currewnt populations are very likely to be inbreed anyway.....and considering there number of breeders in a given area are few and far between and have been so for 100 yrs.....
4 consevation projects in the last few yrs
1/ kakapo 2 or 3 birds left in existance, was thought to be extinct...now number in maybe 100 or so
2/Ornge kakariki, tiny isolared population from which a hand full of birds where taken in the wild, breed up and now having flocks established in the wild on isloated island
4/Takahi thougght to be extinct, a couple birds, now established isolated flocks
In nature defective birds do not survive and do not breed....in capitivity they do surive and do breed...
When inbreeding...be ruthless ...any defect or even suspect...cull...any drop off in fertility (which is a dfect the same as any other) be ruthless.
The question as what to breed for your mutations, Im not qualified , or experianced in these matters....unfortunatly we do not have the mutaion genes left in our populations....a shame. _________________ My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
Thanks guys .... i needed some input from other peeps to help decide and your coments are really helpfull. Ive read quite a bit on here before about whats going on in NZ regarding re-establishing the orange fronted and re-introducing the red fronted to islands.... but hadnt really related that to captive breeding..... but its obvious now. Both the birds are of good colour n shape and quite lively.... the ony thing thats not quite normal is they are both a bit nutty .... but i dont see that as a defect. The first few birds i had were wild colour and all died within a couple of years for no apparent reason..... the vet said it could be congenital heart or liver problems from irisponsible breeding, but the birds i have now are much bigger and stronger .... and the one death i have had (dad) was my own fault and a sad lesson learned as he over heated in the summerhouse.
Big sister has just produced her 1st egg so hoping they will be firtile
i think i have some pics on here of the birds in question.... will go look _________________ May........
About the pied mutation, we usually make it over-simplified by using the terms recesive pied and dominant pied.
But... an expert in parrot mutations, Terry Martin, suggests that in fact the pied mutation consists in over a dozen of major and minor pied genes, that have dominant/co-dominant/recessive inter-relationships.
The "yellow" (aka goldcheck, BEC, DEC) kakariki is in fact a selection of birds that exhibit the most yellow patches, eventually covering the whole bird.
(Thus birds that have more of those pied-genes)
This selection can also be worked towards a definite pattern (i.e. the popular saddleback, consisting of a mostly yellow bird except 2 symmetrical wing/shoulder patches)
Where I want to get is, maybe your female is ok to breed yellow birds if she just has a couple of green feathers.
Most yellow birds have the odd green feather anyway. If it happens to be a tail feather, it's very easy to spot. If it's a feather somewhere in the head/cheek it's very difficult to spot as it's a very small feather.
You have to think how many of her siblings have shown green feathers. If there's a high % of chicks with visible/noticeable green patches then maybe as you have already said it's not very interesting to use her to breed yellows, and rather pair her with a pied male to obtain pied birds (which are beautiful also).
I don't know if you understand what I mean.
About inbreeding, I've read lots of stuff and have had conversations with several breeders, kakariki and non-kakariki, but I have almost zero personal, first hand, experience.
Via inbreeding we will boost/promote defects in the hypothetical offspring, BUT (and this is the part people usually miss) we will also boost/promote a number of desired attributes.
Each chick will have a random combination of those better/neutral/worse characteristics.
This will also happen when we pair unrelated birds, there is also a risk that undersired traits are passed on to the offspring.
As Steptoe says, I think the problem doesn't really lie in the fact of inbreeding, but rather poor practices and standars.
i.e. if you use birds with poor characteristics, you'll perpetuate those negative traits. If you only inbreed the very best birds, with the least possible flaws, then you may eventually be succesful and breed birds of very good quality, because you have grouped a number of desirable genes in the same bird.
Of course there is the risk that it doesn't work out and after 3-4 generations you have not progressed, but maybe you succeed.
If you pair the same male with the same female for 10 years, you will not progress for sure. Inbreeding... you may or may not succeed.
About pairing brother x sister, apparently it's not advisable. What I have read or heard from different breeders is that it's usually better to pair birds of different generations (aunt-niece, father-daughter) or half-siblings, but not brother-sister because the genetic make up is too similar. I don't know if this is old wives tale or in fact it doesn't yield any progress in the breeding program.
I have made this season 1 pairing brother x sister just as a test, and only had 2 chicks born and weaned, 1 of them died very young, and the remaining hen I'm not very happy with her feather quality.
I want to try different pairings in the future, with cockatiels and kakariki, but only when the very best birds are available.
Sorry for this very long post, hope I have explained myself decently, my English is getting worse over time.
Cheers / Pablo _________________ AD ASTRA PER ASPERA
Thanks for the long post Pabloc... it backs up everything i have been thinking.... i have decided to pair the original mother (petal) with another yellow bec.... i found one with no green... a large bird 3 years old but more stocky than the ones i already had, he looks strong and has just been introduced..... they are getting on ok so far and Petal is WAY happier already. I have put brother and sister together .... will see what happens. I was brought up farming and also bred goats for export for quite a few years so i understand about good stock and good and bad qualities and what not to breed from. Both brother and sister are very friendly birds eat well good feather, no green at all and nothing obvious going wrong anywhere ....... if anything they may lack a few brain cells (bit thick) and are quite noisy for kakarikies they are the most like this of all the birds hatched from the same parents...... may be they will produce chicks that are real noisy and really stoopid...... to start off they were fighting over food but Little (hen) has sorted that one right out and now has Dave feeding her regularly so think that side of it is ok.....
will keep you posted of further developments _________________ May........
if you have bred goats before then this is the same, just that this time around they have feathers and lack horns hehehe LOL
Singing/vocal birds, I think this has a genetic component. Canaries have been selective bred for this, and now there are 3 "streams" of canary breeds: posture, color and singing. Singing canaries are bred mostly for their ability to sing, and not just how loud they do it, but also their ability to learn certain tunes and certain singing patterns.
What I mean with this is that despite in a small scale, we might "accidentally" breed birds with more vocal ability.
In kakarikis I don't notice such big differences, but among cockatiels I notice a big difference between the best singers and those that are less vocal.
Cheers / Pablo _________________ AD ASTRA PER ASPERA
update.... Petal and her new partner Bruce have hatched a chick.... just the 1 out of 10 eggs.... but i didnt notice them mating untill she had laid 6 or 7 eggs... previously she has laid another clutch a couple of weeks after the last lot has hatched .... so keeping fingers crossed
Big and Gilbert (pied) are looking after a clutch of 8 eggs but im thinking they probably arnt furtile
Little and Dave have mated a lot but not produced any eggs yet i have just taken off the nest box as little was in there all the time _________________ May........
They are size "M" i think maybe a bit bigger than cockatile rings.... they need to go on at the right time... too early and they fall off but if you leave it too late they wont go on (made that mistake before so used split plastic rings and they all managed to get them off bar 1...little.... she likes it cuz shes into jewelery and nail varnish n stuff!) I found a week old was ok just as eyes were opening. _________________ May........
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