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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Blue mutation
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Blue mutation
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May
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject:

emb .... ok ... i think i got it straight in my head now Rolling Eyes

i was reading few months back about a spiecies of red fronted from a particular island (cant think where now or find the site i was looking at .... due to my head feeling like its about to expload) that was slightly larger and had a bluish hue to the feathers in certain lights........ my interest was sparked mainly because my only wild colour (who has now turned out to be pied) is very large has this bluish irridescence is really buff and a much less slender shape and also has different behaviour to all the other birds ive had... he flys very well very fast and manouvers in the air increadibly he doesnt climb much and is not at all acrobatic..... his offspring are very similar to him.... maybe this spiecies at some time mutated to produce more blue?

just to spark off something else .... Rolling Eyes i have "the kakariki colouring book" by I S Dyer which has a photo of a "Red Suffused Cinnamon Red Fronted" ...... never heard anything about this anywhere other than the book.... but again..... my sceptisism kicks in when i notice throughout the book he has his male n female symbols the wrong way round...!!!! big mistake for an expert in genetics to make if even I noticed it...!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject:

May,

how's Dyer's book?
I thought about buying his kakariki books, but as it's not possible to see a preview or anything I didn't want to spend the money. There are several editions.
Possibly some of the information is not very accurate, but nevertheless it could contain interesting data/info. I would appreciate a quick review, thx.

There are indeed several kakariki species. If you read Peter Wouter's article on origin/evolution you'll see they evolved from common ancestors. Each isolated population evolved differently into a different species/subspecies.
As you correctly say they "mutated" differently. A mutation is a change in the offspring, not just a change in color, but any change.
In Europe we have intebred all the sub-species so it's possible certain traits from a given subspecies is dominant or prevalent.

I don't know if Peter or Steps have been able to find reports/registers of the original imports into Europe, or the first specimens kept and bred.

Steps, it's possible the bloodline of the stuffed blue kakariki is long gone, but that doesn't mean the blue mutation may not exist in other bloodlines, or that a bird eventually have an error on its DNA and "generate" a defective gene.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I don't know if Peter or Steps have been able to find reports/registers of the original imports into Europe, or the first specimens kept and bred.

1st off of anyone I know , met heard of, Peter would have done the greatest reseach of old NZ records I know of....Lots of interesting links to archives in posts years back.....from some of these I started to move out into old diaries of settlers, travellers....even at small town musems, they have those displays of old rooms behind glass, I would spot a book, find the curator and talk him into unlocking so I could look at a book or diary.
Understand 1 thing, these people where in a very foreign land, crops would not grow..even clove because no bees, and kakariki in huge flocks damn near starved them out at times.
Just like today, people back then where no different , they had their enterprneirs...see an opporutinty, and the wourned kakariki mutitaions, in particular, picked up good prices back in Europe.
It is my understanding from some of these old notes, most of these went to Germany, Belguim and London

Quote:
Steps, it's possible the bloodline of the stuffed blue kakariki is long gone, but that doesn't mean the blue mutation may not exist in other bloodlines, or that a bird eventually have an error on its DNA and "generate" a defective gene.

I agree, its possible, but considering factors I meantioned above, and that the world population of kakariki has gone from 10 or even 100s of thousands likely more down to 1000s, the odds of that gene mutatiing again are very slim.
Even finding a simple pied mutation in NZ is near impossble...I thought I had a line, but saddly no, after many yrs of trying to devalope....AND with some of the best Brains on kakariki advising me.....The
Peters in Europe, Kevin in Aussie...

May u speak of a description that describes a bluish eridesent hue to kakariki....A red crown or antipodies in very good breeding condition in the right light has a definate green/bluish shimmering eidesent huge....very similar to that of an Aussie crimson wing, and many other similar green parrots....but not the green in the king parrot.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject:

Steps,

I don't quite understand.
On one hand you say they exported them to Europe. It's a fact a number of those kakariki made it alive and were bred in Europe, because it's been 60+ yrs that kakariki have not been imported into Europe anymore, or at least Kakariki were not exported from NZ, at least not via legal methods*.

So why do you think that bloodline is extinct?

Quote:
these people where in a very foreign land, crops would not grow..even clove because no bees, and kakariki in huge flocks damn near starved them out at times.

I didn't know there weren't bees in NZ.
I thought insects would be very much the same as in most of the known lands. And of course the soil and weather would be very different to that in Europe. It was probably a challenge to cultivate anything back at that time into a new land.

What I find strange is that no orange fronted parakeets, or some of the other kakariki species like antipodes have been preserved in captivity in Europe.
Or maybe they were hybridized and eventually lost.

Peter had already mentioned in a post a few yrs ago that due to the high market value at the time (XIX century), people were already breeding carelessly yellow x red fronted.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
May,

how's Dyer's book?
I thought about buying his kakariki books, but as it's not possible to see a preview or anything I didn't want to spend the money. There are several editions.
Possibly some of the information is not very accurate, but nevertheless it could contain interesting data/info. I would appreciate a quick review, thx..


I have 2 of his books they were both reasonably cheep had them a few years now tho and prob due for a re-read ..... think his 1st book just called "Kakariki" wouldnt be worth you getting.... it explains the basics of how to keep kakarik but does have some odd things in.... like you shouldnt feed letuce...??!!?? It does have a chapter entitled "descriptions of the spiecies and notes on their geographical distribution" which i found interesting and he does stress the problems of people producing hybrids.... and goes to great lengths to explain why you shouldnt do this...

"The Kakariki Colouring book" would have far more information that would be usefull to you... a lot of the book is his opinion... and explinations about what he has done over the many years he has bred kakarik mutations in the UK ..... it explains some basics of genetics but no charts or anything too complicated has chapters entitled: heredity, what is a mutation, jumping over genetics, colour variants in kakariki, line breeding and inbreeding, grading up, and line breeding kakariki colour variants. (he doesnt like calling them mutations prefuring "colour variants") i did like his surgestion that certain mutations could be triggered by environmental factors.... but he also talks about the orange fronted in NZ and how they are a natural colour morph of the yellow fronted...? i need to read that bit again!!! he refurs to a paper by R.H.Taylor studdying orange fronted..... it didnt sound the same as how i understood it..... but worth a read. The book has a few quite pour quality colour photoes of different mutations of both red and yellow fronted and names such as "pearl lutino red fronted", "clear pied cinnimon", "Black-eyed yellow Yellow fronted" but no sign of a goldcheck/BEC..... mabe he called them black eyed yellow red fronted....??? or maybe they hadent appeared when he wrote the book..... although i think it was updated in 2001...??

id recomend this book based on the fact that this guy has bread mutation kakarik for a long time and there is a lot of his personal experience to ponder over.... he talks about percentages of chicks produced from different pairings and an 18th century monk called gregor mendel..... quite easy to read although it is a bit rambling at times it is still interesting.... id say if you can pick it up cheep get it...!!! try amazon or ebay

phew..... need a coffee now signlol

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject:

May,

thx a lot for the review, when I have some spare cash I'll probably get them.
I saw them at amazon for 10-20.

There's another author, J. Batty, that wrote a book about kakariki.

Do you know if I.S. Dyer is still alive?

Cheers / Pablo

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject:

Quote:
On one hand you say they exported them to Europe. It's a fact a number of those kakariki made it alive and were bred in Europe, because it's been 60+ yrs that kakariki have not been imported into Europe anymore, or at least Kakariki were not exported from NZ, at least not via legal methods*.

They where exported to europe, especally any thing that maybe 'different'
Early Documents show this was early to late 1800s, which by the late 1800s kakariki where almost extinct...hence no longer an issue to crops.
Ther are many reports that indicate suprise at the prolific numbers of natural mutations in flocks compared to other species around the world, but I only report of the blue mutation, that Peter found.
And if there where any other blue samples exported, I would not be suprised if it was more of the blue I saw in Aussie which I believe to be enviroment induced.

Quote:
I didn't know there weren't bees in NZ.
I thought insects would be very much the same as in most of the known lands.

Thats like assuming all land have mammals....well all but NZ, except for a tiny bat.. Hence why our Moa for example filled the equivilent ecological balance of nature to what would have been Deer else where.....The kakapo a flightless parrot, the weka more in line with a rat, just to name a coupe....and why NZ uises most of the worlds production of 1080 poison...Drop that stuff in the Rockies and will kill off all the wolves, bears , the species they intend to protect.
In the mid 1800s settlers introduced many crops, clover one because the volcanic soil lacked nitrogen...Thev seed grew, flowers, and seed was not fertilised, the local bees where unable to ferlize the clover flower...This was not uncommon as the world was colonised from Europe over the centuries.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
May,

thx a lot for the review, when I have some spare cash I'll probably get them.
I saw them at amazon for 10-20.

There's another author, J. Batty, that wrote a book about kakariki.

Do you know if I.S. Dyer is still alive?

Cheers / Pablo


Pabs keep an eye on ebay think thats where i picked mine up.. that price seems real high espesially as both books are only paper backs and 50-60 pages long...!!!

i just read a really bad review on amazon for the Batty book....

and no i dont know if he is still alive .....i wondered the same.... if he is he'd be probably in his 80's .... as he looks old in the pic on the back of the colouring book ....has white hair and a natty clark gable moustache .....and the book was first published i think... in 1994 and on the back of the other book he says he can remember seeing the R101 airship flying over when he was a child.... and that crashed in 1930

One book id like to check out is J M Forshaws parrots of the world ....

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject:

May,

some general books are interesting, but usually they are too simplistic and I'm pretty sure they are not accurate in their reports.

There's also the Lexicon of Parrots, you can preview it online here http://www.arndt-verlag.com/

Even some specialized books can be disappointing, for instance Bastiaan book on Indian parakeets is a rip-off. A very nice collection of full-page pictures, but zero constructive information. And some other books are not disappointing, but have left me very hungry.

Btw... there is a pyrrhura group in facebook led by Les Waring. http://www.facebook.com/groups/180475232038437/
Take a look there. Lots of interesting info/tips on species/subspecies identification, mutations, etc... Several members from UK.

Cheers / Pablo

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:45 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:

I don't know if Peter or Steps have been able to find reports/registers of the original imports into Europe, or the first specimens kept and bred.



Hi Pablo,

Information about the history of Kakariki in Europe is very scarce. The first redfronted Kakariki was shown in the London Zoo in 1864. It is not known when the first breeding results were achieved but the Frenchman Delaurier saw his first chick in 1875. Between 1875 and 1882, several pairs of him produced a total of 65 youngsters.
As Steps mentioned above we can conclude from Bullers notes that at the end of the 1800's the Redfronted Kakariki was almost extinct on the mainland. From that moment we can assume that there was no longer export to Europe and the rest of the world.
After that there is a large gap concerning information. In the early 70's one kakariki costs 2,500.00. It's about 3,166.00USD or 3,982.00NZD.
Even now it would be very expensive. For comparison, a Kakariki costs currently about 17. The price is a good indicator for the availability of something. That's why I believe that Kakariki's were still rare in the early 70's.

I wouldn't be surprised if one day a DNA research would reveal a close relationhip between the European Kakariki's. If that is true, what about inborn defects.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject:

Peter wrote:
As Steps mentioned above we can conclude from Bullers notes that at the end of the 1800's the Redfronted Kakariki was almost extinct on the mainland. From that moment we can assume that there was no longer export to Europe and the rest of the world.


I have found a small Dutch article about the history of Kakariki in Europe. It says that in the early 1900's still tens of thousands have been imported in Europe. Could this be true? It also says that at that time the Brittish Governor on NZ intervened and made the Kakariki protected from export.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject:

Hi!

Peter, I don't know Dutch, but is it possible that maybe the quantity of "thousands" was referred to the total of birds exported. I wonder if other NZ birds were also exported back at the time.

As Steps has mentioned in the past, NZ birds are somehow "tame" or not very afraid of humans. I wonder if other birds were also exported, although truth is that I do not know of any other NZ birds that are kept in captivity in Europe.

For instance Kea are kept in captivity, but I have not seen any reports, images, etc... of Kaka kept in captivity outside NZ.

Cheers / Pablo

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
It says that in the early 1900's still tens of thousands have been imported in Europe. Could this be true? It also says that at that time the Brittish Governor on NZ intervened and made the Kakariki protected from export.

I believe 10s of 1000s is way off the mark...
I believe from memory export of native species blanket bans where introduced around the early 1920s...
From the late 1800s kakariki where all but nonexistant, then the introduction of staots, ferrits rats and possum simply decimated what was left....
I can find no reports or notes regarding export of kakariki after the late 1880s.

I do have a very good friend who was a mechant seaman back in the earlt 60s out of Northhampton (?) England on the Sth American and Afican 'circuit'...back then they brought parrots around the world, tamed them on the way home in the long ship corridors and sold them at the local pubs for pocket money.
It is my impression of old notes this is how they where exported back then.

If it was a commerical enterprise, I would expect even today, Tui, wood pidgen, kea, kaka, weka and other kakariki species to also be common, espec the antipodies, all to be common in collections around the world like cockatoos, kings, macaw...
If they had been it is also very likely they would have died off....Rem this is a land with no mammels and where birds filled those roles in the ecology....basically one treats a kiwi or weka like a rat like mammal... A kea like an alpine hyena...

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:


Peter, I don't know Dutch, but is it possible that maybe the quantity of "thousands" was referred to the total of birds exported. I wonder if other NZ birds were also exported back at the time.



The article is only about Kakariki but perhaps the author has made ​​the wrong interpretation out of his sources. I had contact with Harrie Van Der Linden, international bird judge, writer, has lots of knowledge about many species and on retirement. He confirmed me that he never saw a Kakariki in Holland until the early 70's. Those days they were sold for 2500.
Assuming that at this time Holland, Belgium and Germany are the main exporters of Kakariki to other parts of Europe and maybe the world then I consider it possible that the original Kakariki's in Europe were not so numerous as we have always believed.

Pablo, do you already know a little more about the origin of the Loro Parque Kakariki?

P.S.: maybe we have to start another thread because we deviate from the subject.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject:

Peter wrote:

P.S.: maybe we have to start another thread because we deviate from the subject.


Hi Peter,

I agree, we are discussing more about the origin of kakariki in Europe.
I opened a new thread here...
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopicp-14835.html#14835

(Although I think I also drifted off-topic there)

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