NZ, DoC and Hybids

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

I dont know if u guys overseas are awhere of this:
In NZ here , the native home of the Kike, the cross breeding is highly illegel. We also require permits and inspections from our Dept of Conservation.
The reasoning is basically, if hybrids where to get into the wild, the genic purity of the pool would become corrupted in the natural evnviroment.
Considering that the Kike is basically unknown on the main land, such a corruption would have a long and perminent effect on the wild stock and future generations of New Zealaners.

Personally I support this policy 100% plus, IN NZ.

Althu Im a bit of a purist I see from posts of overseas members and your web pages of hybrids are a major interest overseas, producing valuable birds.
The progess and history of hybrids over the last 100yrs is very interesting, athu sketchy, and the stock that u have is absolutly amazing Shocked

So different to anything we have here.
It is very pleasing to see this involvement in these forums. It is something that we watch with great interest. So any news, general information is very w3c

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Apocrypha · Snr Member Joined: Oct 10, 2004 Posts: 61

Of course it is important to make the distinction between hybrids and mutations.

A hybrid represents a species cross e.g. red and yellow crowned. This is bad form ANYWHERE.

A mutation represents inbreeding/back-breeding, etc (or just plain randomness) resulting in (usually) a colour-morph (e.g pied, lutino, etc). Although this isn't bad for the species, it can be bad for the strain (can be associated co-linked degeneracies, etc).

Interestingly both do occur naturally in NZ. Hybrids occur only when there are high populations of one or both species in close proximity to the other, and isolated (e.g. Little Barrier, Chathams). They are still bad and management reaction usually takes place. Mutations also occur (through chance though also note the Enderby Island pics from in-breeding!). However being a weird colour mutant tends not to fare you well in Darwin's game of life...so they don't last (and are so rare they rarely mate with similar).

Both are still bad in New Zealand and we would encourage neither. Most (emph.) breeders in New Zealand are thankfully concerned with species conservation.

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

Forgive my ignorence...I mean that literally...cause I have never looked into breeding , genetics etc. We are purists at heart signlol

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Now what I dont understand is the old records show both yellow and red have been mixing in the wild for ...well ...ever. How is it they havnt cross bred or 'merged' over that time?

A while back there was a prog on the discovery channel that studied budges and questioned the same thing...from memory, the greens and blues (or is it yellows) where the basic 'wild' breeds

What they basically come up with is that their spectrum for vision was way up in the blues, including utra violet. On the top of their heads some of the feathers emitted/reflected differing patterns or amounts of ultra violet like a species 'finger print'
From these the different species or stains (forgive my lack of tecnical terminlogy) attacted to mate together.
When in capitivity crosses could be forced by restricted access, giving hybrids of the yellows , whites etc etc., even if the UV head patches didnt match.
They went onto say whites would only breed with x etc etc.
Upon talking to several budge breeders, this part seemed to be nonsence when there was a large avairy and birds left to their own resources, the birds didnt have a preference that the breeders had noticed.

The question then arises, why havnt Kikes crossed after 1000s yrs mixed in the wild, and do they also have UV patches or their heads, or other means else where.? Rolling Eyes

Apocrypha · Snr Member Joined: Oct 10, 2004 Posts: 61

hmm...that's a good question that deserves a good (scientific) answer.

Off the top of my head, it is commonly understood that speciation occurs when a species geographic range is split (e.g. mountain range pops up). Over time each group forms into its own unique species.

However recent research shows speciation can also occur through resource differential i.e. a split in resources. yellow-crowns are upper canopy, and red-crowns are lower canopy. So they are effectively species seperated by the canopy level, although it is not uncommon at all (particularly in the plants) for closely related species at the intersection of their range to hybridise.

OK that makes sense enough for now (I think).

Apocrypha · Snr Member Joined: Oct 10, 2004 Posts: 61

I should add that on islands the different species have resulted from different times of arrival.

e.g. on Chathams the Forbe's parakeet arrived about 10,000 years ago and became a unique species through isolation (probably from the original red-crowned). Then the red-crowned re-arrived about 1,000 years ago and became the unique Chatham Island red-crowned (sub-species). so two species persist from different arrival times - though they too hybridise ()almost to the extinction of Forbes! Its was a classic dilemma).

Also note that hybridisation is very bad when an invasive/introduced species e.g. mallard mates with native grey ducks, effectively rendering the population extinct through hybridising them to marginalisation.

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

"a split in resources. yellow-crowns are upper canopy, and red-crowns are lower canopy."

One may spend more time in in each....In practise, both go to the floor for grubs and both feed on Kauri seed in the very top. As far as the Kike is concerned the overlaps is not as defined as other species like the Amazon.
Also to take into account is that our Bush is no were as tall like more tropical enviroments.
The yellow and orange flocked together and was thought to be hybrid up to very resently...

A classic example of hybrids is the fantail. Same species but as one travels from one end of the country the colours change slightly, from quite bright little bird into rather dull brownish tones at the other end.

Kikes dont. nor budgies

It is the experiance and expertese of those breeders overseas that we need to understand much of this.

Peter · Foundation Member Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 599

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

As explained above, Kikes being a native, we are purist and have absoluly no experience in this feild.
Anyone who has, is very 'underground', would has pressure from the local breedimg community, would loose their permits, and get a pretty heavy prosecution.
All we know, is what we read, (often way off beam) rumour and what DoC tells us.
Like I have started couple threads on taming etc, (hoping to get a few comments, disagreements) Can u start one on hybrid/mutant...
How they started, what u guys build on, genic in breeding problems (weak heart what ever.
The background , information and experiance would be valuable for breeding programs and reintoduction of species to the wild, also for future parameters that that DoC may make for permits.
(much of which is archaic, sketchy, supusition and assumption.)
Another area that your knowlege is valued locally here, is cage/flight size that u guys breed/house in, once again we are limited to 1 flight/ pair with no other birds in...this would go in kakariki care section maybe.

Apocrypha · Snr Member Joined: Oct 10, 2004 Posts: 61

cross-breeding red and yellow doesn't lead to infertile, it leads to a very fertile hybrid (see the Enderby Isld photos in gallery). Red-crowned with yellow tinge. Its very well studied in the scientific literature.

The fantail is an example of clines, kind of like dialects except with colour, they change over range. Its all a continuum. The next step is e.g. kaka split into North Island and South Isl;and, while still same species. Then you get kokako North and South where the inbetween continuum that existed is not extinct. Then you get North and South Island distinct species e.g. kiwi. Kakariki are not exactly in this category as its not a geographic gradient but a resource gradient, as studies on Little Barrier have shown (the PDFs are online at www.nzes.org.nz)

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

A side note here...
Apocrypha is pretty well on his way to a Phd. Hes one of those young Academic types with a difference...hes tramping around remote Islands. bush in the middle of the night, studying, surveying researching, all the while feezing his....well cold. He also breeds and maintains his own avaries.
Sort of a modern version of what Dr.Banks the Botanist was on Capt Cooks ship Endevour in the mid 1700s...he even wears glasses to look the part signlol

Me on the other hand, totally the opposite, old enough to be Apocrypha's father, hands on , learn as one goes, listen, watch, screw up occassionally and learn. Have no idea of latin, techy names, and a ground roots layperson...and only wear glasses when reading (cause of my age signlol

)

Hence such differing veiws and ways of approaching things.
We have never actually met face to face over the last few yrs.
If all his faults listed above are ignored, hes not a bad guy really signlol

I also question the infertle cross issue, I have seen birds in avaries, shops that just looking at them they are not of a pure strain. Often having an slight orange /yellow tinge in the red head band, also in the deep green body feathers. This has happened several generations back.

Peter · Foundation Member Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 599

Apocrypha · Snr Member Joined: Oct 10, 2004 Posts: 61

thanks for the kind words. It also seems I have too much free-time...about to be blottoed though.

The species concept is decidely unrigid, some taxonomists in fact think there are better systems, but in the light of nothing else its what we use. The cyanoramphus species are very blurry. See the paper by Boon et al. 2001 (on www.doc.govt.nz website).

The result is, they can quite freely inter-breed. This is not uncommon for other closely related 'pseudo' speices.

I did have an unconfirmed report of a crimson rosella and kakariki having offspring in UK, but never heard back...

Allen · Foundation Member Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 269

All the cinnamon red fronteds that I have seen in South Africa are visibly smaller than the green red fronteds available here. I think my greens are pure as they have no yellow on the top of their heads, only red. I do however think that the cinnamon mutation here has some yellow fronted in it due to the size. My lutino red fronted pair is the same size as my greens.

I noticed last year that my baby green red fronted have a small (3mm square) patch of yellow feathers on the back of their head / neck. This becomes invisible (hidden under green feathers) when they are a few weeks older and is only visible when the bird is soaked from bathing. Is this common / normal or is this unusual because most of my greens seem to have a few yellow feathers?

Steptoe · Site Admin Joined: Oct 06, 2004 Posts: 4550

As u see from the avatar pic u choose, those chicks have a white marking.
As far as Im aware (opinion only)pure red chicks back patch is white.
Its seems the piont at which they 1st leave the nest and the patch is not visible is the same.???

These forums are asking questions that the scientists/researchers should maybe are looking at.
Unfortunately theres a 'distance' between DoC / scientists in NZ and the average breeder

One of the objectives of these forums is to bring the the parties closer together, and share information and experiance on an informal basis.

Allen · Foundation Member Joined: Oct 14, 2004 Posts: 269

We took a photo of one of my young cinnamons and there is clearly a lighter yellow bit on the head just behind the red bit. There must be some yellow fronted in my "red fronted" cinnamons. I will post the picture soon. I am dead against hybrids but enjoy the colour varieties of the various mutations. The basic green bird is still very beautiful in my eyes. The cinnamon is actually quite a "dirty" and dull looking bird but the lutino is truly stunning, a lot of other species have rather dull lutinos but the kike lutino is as intense as the ringneck lutino.