Welcome to Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Diet, Health, Aviaries and Conservation!
Ask Questions, Find Answers and DiscussionsKakariki Member Pics, Mutation/Species IdentificationInformation on Permits, Research Papers etcLinks to Other Sites and InformationYour A/C Details, Messages

     GT Modules
· Home
· Forums
· Recommend Us
· Email Webmaster
Email Webmaster for any problems with Registering, the site and General Enquires
·Link to Us, Details
Set to your default home page· Set Home page


       QuickSearch
Search Forums
for key Words
Advanced Search
 Search  Words

     NZ Conservation            Projects


DoC / NZ Conservation Sites


The National Wildlife Centre
ZEALANDIA: The Karori Sanctuary Experience
Parrot Society of New Zealand
MOTUIHE PROJECT
Karori Wildlife Sanctuary Wellington, NZ


Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Diet, Health, Aviaries and Conservation: Forums

Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - question about black-eye clear
 Forum FAQForum FAQ    SearchSearch     Log inLog in/Register  

question about black-eye clear

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation Forum Index -> Kakariki Mutations and Species
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paleo
New Member
New Member


Joined: Mar 31, 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:09 pm    Post subject: question about black-eye clear

As everybody know, there are two "yellow" color of red-fronted kakariki,
one is lutino (pink pupil) and the other is "black-eye clear"(golden-cheeked)

My question is: does "dom pied plus rec pied" make black-eye clear?
and how about one kakariki looks like if he gets a pair of rec pied gene?
or he gets only one or a pair of dom pied gene?

thanks



sch_03.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  18.28 KB
 Viewed:  276 Time(s)

sch_03.jpg



sch_04.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  48.91 KB
 Viewed:  281 Time(s)

sch_04.jpg


Back to top
Peter
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject:

I’am not an expert but first of al i like to say something about the term piedness. Especially the dominant pied. I find it a bit deceiving.
The gene “dominant pied “ causes a absence of the blue color in the feathers . This is mainly caused by a suppression of melanin. Flight feathers are white. This is also shown in the pink feet and the beak. However, this gene is semi-dominant. This means that a normal/dom.pied shows a collorpatern that is somewhere between the normal and the yellow. In this case pied.
Dom.pied/dom.pied or DF pied is a yellow. Note that most of these yellows have a small spot of green in the neck or back.

Also characteristic is the disappearing of the iris. A normal/dom.pied shows something between and can not be called a pure dark eyed clear.

The recessif pied appears only in rec.pied/rec.pied. As far as i know are they not dark eyed clear. Normal/rec.pied looks like a normal. And is split for recessif pied.

A dom pied/rec pied looks like a normal/dom pied.
There also exists somekind of red eyed clear. This occurs in the following.
Dom pied;lutino/dom pied;lutino
Dom pied;fallow/dom pied;fallow

Visit the site of member Kakariki. You find there good pictures of the eyes.
[url]http://www.kakariki.nl/eindex.htm [/url]
Back to top
kakariki
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 13, 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:24 am    Post subject:

Hi,
I tried to react earlier but it didn´t work out. In the meantime Peter answered the question. I agree with his explenation. My experience sofar is that the yellow blackeyed clear is a double dom pied. I coupled a 100% yellow bird with a 100% wildcolour. The offspring (20 chicks male and female) were all wildcolour pied and looked like the birds you showed on the photo. Peter mensioned the green spot near the eye or the on the back. When I started breeding blackeyed clear I bought around 20 birds from different breeders. Most of them were pure yellow, some had a green spot. The first year the offspring was ca 20% pure yellow and the rest had a little green spot. By selecting only the pure yellow birds for breeding (and ofcourse some birds with spots because they had other good specifications) I was able to reach a percentage of 70% pure yellow. The green spot on the back was simple to remove, the green spots round the beak or the eye are the hardest to remove.
Back to top
Kaka-riki
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:31 am    Post subject:

Peter and Kakariki,
Your replies have been of much assistance in helping us to establish this mutation in Australia. I noticed that the picture of pied birds that Paleo posted shows both cinnamon and normal pied birds. We have recently also produced a pied bird from our yellow birds. Is this normal.
Another breeder here in Australia has also produced a red eye yellow bird from his black eyed yellow pairing. Have you had this occur in your black eye mutations also.
Back to top
kakariki
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 13, 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:05 am    Post subject:

Hi,
I think I told before the yellows were developed from pied birds. My yellow offspring only in 20% of the chicks show a green feather and never more. I know of other breeders that they sometimes breed pied cinnamon or pied wildcolour from the yellows. Since the first yellows appeared everybody wanted to breed them to make money. So all the colours are crossed in the pied birds. Now it is difficult to have pure yellows. Pied is a difficult mutation to breed out of your stock for what I have heard from breeders of all kind of birds. When you breed sf pied x sf pied in 25% the offspring should be pure. Breeders told me it is even less then 25%. The only experience I have in breeding sf pied x sf pied was bad. Of 16 chicks not one was pure.
Back to top
kakariki
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 13, 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:10 am    Post subject:

Hi again, I forgot something
I also have redeyed yellows . In my stock these are lutino df dom. pied. Due to the df pied the eye is clear. The red inhereds recessiv to pied and wildcolour. So the father and the mother are split to this red eye. To start a breedingline you can cross the bird with the father or mother to breed more. Then breed the chicks to unrelated birds ro get fresh blood split birds. My experience is that these birds are always yellow without green feather. They are a bit harder to breed then the yellows blackeye
Back to top
Peter
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:42 am    Post subject:

Black eyed clear Fallow


Red-eye.jpg
 Description:
 Filesize:  147.39 KB
 Viewed:  253 Time(s)

Red-eye.jpg




Last edited by Peter on Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
kakariki
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 13, 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject:

Post edited admin:
Fixing failure of attach and 2nd post
Also lustrating the use of comments in attachment.



lutino pop.JPG
 Description:
I disagree about the photo of Peters df pied lutino. My df pied lutino's redeye clear never show a green spot
 Filesize:  19.02 KB
 Viewed:  327 Time(s)

lutino pop.JPG



lutino df dom[1]. pied male (COM champion) 94 points.JPG
 Description:
male red eye df pied lutino
 Filesize:  79.24 KB
 Viewed:  249 Time(s)

lutino df dom[1]. pied male (COM champion) 94 points.JPG


Back to top
Peter
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:44 am    Post subject:

kakariki wrote:
I disagree about the photo of Peters df pied lutino. My df pied lutino's redeye clear never show a green spot


I agree when we speak in phenotypical terms like the 'goldcheck'. Your birds are the result of selection. But genetically mine and yours are still the same. No....?

Peter
Back to top
Cattscapes
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:10 am    Post subject:

Hi Guys i was wondering if any of you guys overseas have paired your BECs back to pied birds ? Were any reverse pieds breed or just normal looking pieds ? I have been thinking about pairing one to the the best pied cock bird in my album and as the BECs are not very common in Australia i dont know to much about the outcome. Not sure if all the babies would be split to BEC. Any input would be great. Cheers Kev
Back to top
Peter
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:38 am    Post subject:

Hi Kevin,

Glad that you dig this old topic up cause it needs an update. The BEC is, unlike I claimed before, a recessive trait filled up with (what I believe is) a collection of minor pied genes and modifiers. Consider the latter as a theory altough everything is pointing that way.

I believe that a few of them are dominant but most of them must be recessive. Typical for these minor pieds is that they show themselfs in areas which are the same for every specie. Neck area, legs, tail, flightfeathers, area around and between the legs.

Probably your birds are a selection or a part of these minor pieds. If the theory is correct than another question arises. Are some of them linked? I mean, on the same chromosome.

A pairing of a BEC with your best pied will produce good pieds which are split to the major gene.

Another interesting fact is that the major gene, when homozygous, shows a brown irisring. This means that the mutation also removes the red colour in the iris. This is quite the same characteristic that the Danisch pied Budgie shows.
Research of the Danisch pied made by Mutavi revealed microscopic pied areas in the inner eye. These pied areas increase along with the degree of pied in the plumage.
I believe it is the same story for Kakariki. When you point a flashlight to the eyes of different BEC you will notice a different degree of plumcolour which is in proportion to the amount of pied in the plumage.
Also the irisring varys from brown to black. The more pied the darker the iris.
Back to top
wyndara
Snr Member
Snr Member


Joined: Jun 19, 2005
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Peter,Kev, would it be fair to say then that the BEC is actually a reverse pied ie more pied than the wild colour. with the eye colour altering with the amount of pied showing in each bird. the name black eyed clear seems misleading when you see birds with normal coloured feathers amongst the pied feathers. Kev i have spoken to a couple of people with BEC and both have out crossed their birds to complete normals, both produced the same results, very good pieds and normal coloured birds showing absolutly no pied, they have not proved yet if these normal coloured birds are in fact split for pied or bec or infact they are normals.
Back to top
Kaka-riki
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:08 pm    Post subject:

The bec comes in varying forms. Some birds are completely yellow whilst others display patches of normal colouring around the head and back areas. Pairing 2 completely yellow birds together does not guarantee that the normal patches will not appear in the offspring.

Pairing a bec to a normal will result in ALL offspring being split to bec as can be expected with a recessive type mutation. It is possible to get pied offspring from the same pairing however the pied markings are usually insignificant. That is to say well marked pieds are very rare (but genetically possible) when using this pairing.

It should also be remembered that ALL bec (in Australian aviaries) carry both the fallow and cinnamon genes as well. The full bec masks the cinnamon and fallow BUT will become evident when bec's are paired back to either normal pieds or normals. As all of the bec's came from the one location it is something to be remembered when considering future pairings.

A more reliable method of increasing the amount of pied in the recessive mutation may be to use a normal pied / bec hen to a normal pied cock bird. This pairing should eliminate the other mutations and allow the bec mutation to work in it's own right.

Unlike other breeders we have not tested the above theory and therefore can only offer suggestions. We have recently sold our entire collection of Kakariki and so I guess we will have to wait and see whether this pairing does in fact have any effect on the recessive pied mutation in Kakariki. I am sure someone will try it one day.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation Forum Index -> Kakariki Mutations and Species All times are GMT + 13 Hours
Page 1 of 1
Copy Paste Text Here to Translate
Select Language and Translate

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by PHPBulletinBoard © 2001-2008 phpBulletinBoard Group
PHPBulletinBoard port based on Tom Nitzschner's PHPBulletinBoard upgraded to PHPBulletinBoard 2.0.7
Standalone Developed Tested by: ChatServ, mikem,
and Paul Laudanski (aka Zhen-Xjell).

by Nuke Cops © 2004




All Logos and Trademarks in this site are Property of their Respective Owners.
Statements and Views Expressed on this web site Represent the Opinions of the Authors.
Neither this Site or the Publishers of this Site Assume Any Liability for the Information Contained Herein.
ANY CONTENT from this Site can only be DISTRIBUTED/PUBLISHED/USED ELSEWHERE with PRIOR WRITTEN PERMISSION
ALL COMMENTS/PICTURES/CONTENT are the PROPERTY of the CONTRIBUTORS and © 2004/2015 by WWW.KAKARIKI.NET

Web site engine's code is Copyright © 2003 by NukePortal. All Rights Reserved. NukePortal is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL license.
Page Generation: 0.766 Seconds