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advice please this is complicated!
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject:

We discussed heating daylight time etc a couple yrs ago

Since then Im have come to the conclusion..kakariki donrt give a hoot signlol

The coldest week of the yr, middle of frosts, couple weeks after the shortest day...couple pairs went to nest, and the 1st chicks have been emerging in the last few days, and the hens have gone back and sitting.

This is not the 1st time
And they dont give a hoot shorter days, cold weather and know when to stop...

After a bit of experimenting, and I believe the reason it happened again this yr, is feeding meat, cooked steak, chicken etc as a pre breeding conditioning.
Instead i just seems to throw them striaght into laying and hatching chicks.

This is all in the flights outsaide you guys see inthat TV video clip.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:03 am    Post subject:

Quote:

After a bit of experimenting, and I believe the reason it happened again this yr, is feeding meat, cooked steak, chicken etc as a pre breeding conditioning.
Instead i just seems to throw them striaght into laying and hatching chicks.


I must try a richer protein diet myself.

Just out of curiosity I took some time to put together the ss/sr and daylight hours for the solstices in different cities:

Date Sunrise Sunset This day
BRUSSELS
21/06/09 05:29:00 22:00:00 16h 31m 14s
Dec 21, 2009 08:43:00 16:39:00 7h 56m 11s
AMSTERDAM
21/06/09 05:18:00 22:06:00 16h 48m 10s
Dec 21, 2009 08:48:00 16:29:00 7h 40m 49s
BARCELONA
21/06/09 06:19:00 21:28:00 15h 09m 43s
Dec 21, 2009 08:14:00 17:25:00 9h 11m 28s
AUCKLAND
Dec 21, 2009 05:58:00 20:40:00 14h 41m 58s
21/06/09 07:34:00 17:11:00 9h 37m 34s
CHATHAM ISLANDS
Dec 21, 2009 05:45:00 21:14:00 15h 29m 27s
21/06/09 08:06:00 17:00:00 8h 53m 06s
WELLINGTON
Dec 21, 2009 05:44:00 20:54:00 15h 09m 45s
21/06/09 07:47:00 16:58:00 9h 11m 28s

At my end and at Auckland we seem to get a bit more daylight the shorter days, so if the hen lays 1-2 weeks after the solstice by the time the chicks hatch (1 month) we have a nice +1:30 of daylight.
Probably still not really needed for the birds to have artificial lighting in the northern countries, but maybe it's a nice plus (to stimulate breeding and to feed the chicks too).

Mine have done ok on cold weather, without any source of heating, but didn't try breeding.

But yes.. if they want.. they will really breed. I had 2 young hens decide to lay eggs. Wish cockatiels were so willing to breed too :)

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:26 am    Post subject:

for some reason I can't edit the post

I mean there were 2 hens alone in an aviary, and they weren't supposed to breed, but they had their own plans!!! 2 eggs. I decided to move them to an aviary with no nests.

cheers

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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:26 am    Post subject:

Hey Pablo, very clarifying presentation.

I also believe that kakariki will breed with a minimum of daylight. The only reason why I extend daylight is because of the maximum quality of feeding. In the breeding area lights are on from 5.45h till 21.30h. Very often I notice that the parents continue collecting food till the last minute. And even then there is a dimmed light that allows the birds to continue feeding.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:51 am    Post subject:

Peter,

I have experienced the same, cockatiels already sleeping and daddy kakariki still busy going here and there feeding the chicks.

I'm not sure right now if I read it or it's my imagination, but I would swear I read somewhere that the hen keeps food in her crop and eventually would feed during night time.
Or maybe it's in cockatiels.
But I'm not sure about this.

Just by chance do the birds get upset due to the change in day-light time when you place them inside in the winter or do they adapt trouble free?

Regards

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:00 am    Post subject:

My impresssion is about 1/2 teaspoon of chopped up steak and/ or chicken
per bird ... and chopped up chicken carcass and bones. about 1/2 to 1 pea size...over 3 or 4 days will throw them into mating.
Then the same every 2 to 4 days after that. (this is determined by the scraps from the kitchen)...Combined with fruit in season.
People often comment on the size (and condition) of our birds...again Im sure this is because we also supply fruit, protein after the chicks have hatched....and maybe because of applecider vinegar added to veggies evey 3 or 4 days (the last of the batch of veggies made up)
I also think that the constant supply of a huge variaty of raw veggies 2x a day, approx 1/4 small handfull per bird 2x a day....this takes care of all the veggie scraps/peelngs leaves, stems from our meal preparation.

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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:14 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
I'm not sure right now if I read it or it's my imagination, but I would swear I read somewhere that the hen keeps food in her crop and eventually would feed during night time.
Or maybe it's in cockatiels.
But I'm not sure about this.

I'm also not sure but I believe that the hen produces cropmilk in the first days. That is 24/24h available. That changes when she switches over to solid food. I guess thats also the reason why the male takes over after a week or 2. From then the female is unable to store food for a long time.


pabloc wrote:
Just by chance do the birds get upset due to the change in day-light time when you place them inside in the winter or do they adapt trouble free?


No, never had problems.
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:15 am    Post subject:

I like this kind of discusions Laughing

Steptoe, you wil give them more protiein for and during the breeding period??.
I give the birds eggfood with protien of 18%-20%, that is normal eggfood with a mixture of extra animal protein, vegatable protien, beer yeast and an multi vitamine/mineral powder including fruit and vegetables.
After the moult I go back to 12% protein, that is the basic eggfood .
I agree with Peter and Steptoe about the lights.
I use the lights to the months october/november (autumn /winter ) because i do shows with the birds.
The heating is used for acclimate the birds during and after the shows.
On the show is the temperature mostly 20 degrees celcius ,outside in the avary about 0 degrees celcius, sometimes colder .
Also i use the heating for defros the drinking-water and bathwater during the winter.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject:

Steps,

I have asked French breeder Thierry Duliere permission to paste here his feeding method.
Somehow similar to Steps and Peterlimburg, and Peter W. as well, if I'm not mistaken he supplies extra protein.

It's a very bad habit here in Spain the diet of the birds. The tradition is to feed cockatiel seed mix (with millet and too much sunflower for my taste). Then a veggie/fruit mix and basic eggfood.

Seed mix in Europe is much better, because the base is not millet, is canary seed.
Another problem is the lack of protein supplement, and even retailers advice to give only a small quantity, and they treat me like I was an insane guy. In Europe is more extended.

Is there any alternative way to give "cheap" protein to the birds, other than natural chicken/meat, alive worms, or insect patee?
For instance, I have read articles about peanut butter being a good natural and cheap source of protein and fiber.
Any other ideas?

By the way, just a final thought, Thierry Duliere uses apple cider vinegar together as he says it acidifies the digestive tract of the birds, thus making them more resistant to bacteria, infections, etc...
Apart from the other good properties of the vinegar.

Very interesting discussion :)

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I guess thats also the reason why the male takes over after a week or 2.

When we had the cctv cameras recording 24/7 the male never feed the chicks in the nest till the female leaves to lay again...the male feed the female, she deed the chicks..
Also the never feed the chicks in the night..after dusk and before dawn.
They would roll eggs, move around in their sleep, but very raely ever woke up.
Quote:
Steptoe, you wil give them more protiein for and during the breeding period??.

Quote:
Is there any alternative way to give "cheap" protein to the birds, other than natural chicken/meat, alive worms, or insect patee?

Wouldnt have a clue m8...we do not use any suppliments, powered foods, insect patee. egg..they only get what I have put in the "what do you feed your kikes" thread plus just choped up left overs from the table...and chop bones and stuff...cant get any cheaper than that.

Quote:
It's a very bad habit here in Spain the diet of the birds. The tradition is to feed cockatiel seed mix (with millet and too much sunflower for my taste).



We give them enough mix to last 2 weeks, the sunflower goes, and if they dont eat the rest they go hungry signlol..and what is left goes to the burkes and turqs..and what is left after that..about 2Ls each month goes to the Ma-in -Law for her budgies.
3 kings, 2 crimsons, 2 turq, 4 burkes, 20/30 kakariki go thru about 3 to 4L of seed a fortnight, and about 10 to 12 kg of veggies and fruit....and near nil wastage.

Quote:
Also i use the heating for defros the drinking-water and bathwater during the winter

We notice the kakaki like/prefer cold water, even on frosty mornings...-2 or 3 C..bath /drinking water is 1 tray, auto replaced about 10am each day(10am is to make sure we have all had a shower 1st signlol)

With all due respect, sometimes I think you guys get carried away with special foods, temps, care....kakariki are very tough, tolerant..give them good fresh healthy food and they are happy.....but Im only talking about 'wilds' and dont know if muttions are as strong????

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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject:

Pablo, whole grains together with pulses is a good alternative for complete proteins.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject:

Peter,

what you say makes a lot of sense. Countless portuguese breeders feed their parrots and parakeets racing pigeon seed mix, soaked or sprouted.
The composition is mostly pulses, corn, etc...
But not easy to find in Spain! Sad

Thierry feeds soy cakes, the ones used to feed pigs at farms, as part of his "pate"

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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
Quote:
I guess thats also the reason why the male takes over after a week or 2.

When we had the cctv cameras recording 24/7 the male never feed the chicks in the nest till the female leaves to lay again.

Thats funny. During hot days I open the nestboxes for fresh air. I noticed several times how the male was feeding the chicks after 2 weeks.


Steptoe wrote:
With all due respect, sometimes I think you guys get carried away with special foods, temps, care....kakariki are very tough, tolerant..give them good fresh healthy food and they are happy.....but Im only talking about 'wilds' and dont know if muttions are as strong????

I fully agree. I recently came across a word called 'phytonutrients'. When you study that you can't past veggies and sprouts. I doubt if manufacterers can put all those nutrients in their processed foods.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:

Thierry feeds soy cakes, the ones used to feed pigs at farms, as part of his "pate"


Soya is also a good alternative. To my knowledge it is the only vegetable with complete proteins. Did you know that soya contains a substance called Saponin which has strong antibacterial and antiprotozoal activity. This counts also for chick peas, spinach, navy beans, silver beet, mung beans.
Yes, feeding is an interesting subject.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:28 am    Post subject:

For me it's mostly a nightmare, because I can't find a constant supply. Stuff changes all the time. Seeds, composition, etc...
Even buying the seeds separately and mixing them myself is impossible.

I hope this winter suppliers get better, or maybe I have to start looking at Portugal.

Veggies, etc... not difficult, they are easy to find locally at a reasonable price.

Peter and the rest of the guys, which seed composition are you currently using?

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