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ksue
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: 2 dead

I have come home from work and checked on the bubs and one was dead.....so i took the 2 living ones out and but them in a bowl to get the dead one out and when i went to put them back in the nest bow the little one and keeled over on her back she closed her eye and dies?????
what the F%$# is happening....I dont understand they were all fed and there was no harm done to them.....the only one alive is the oldest hen.....do i leave her there what could have happened
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject:

Having one or two in a batch die overing the nesting period is often acceptable 'natural ' selection
Having them all do so in such a short period is out of the norm...
It is at this stage one should be looking to autotopsy.

We have found with frquent handling of Chicks, even with parents that dont seem to mind in the least, the chick death in the nest is higher...
Why? We do not know for sure.
We do not handle chicks, and even then only breifly, till pin feathers are well devaloped.

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ksue
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:50 pm    Post subject:

I would understand the handleing thing if the parents had killed them or stopped feeding them but they were fed and untouched....the last hen is still fine i thought maybe a spider or somthing but there is no evience of this......i did not think of autopsy and have already disposed of the bodies it is just a strange thing the littlest one that died in the bowl the larger one was standing on it do you think she could have squashed it or somthing I dont know?????
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject:

What a lot of excited breeders fail to understand when handling their young chicks is hygene. I would recommend that EVERY breeder read up on handrearing chicks and the protocol required in regards to hygene. Having done that then consider how many germs and bacteria you may be passing on to a lifeform that at best is only weeks old and at worst days old. So many breeders are amazed when they ask their vet about the handling of chicks and get the response they dont want to hear. That is usually restrict to restrict ALL HANDLING to a minimum until the chick has reached almost fledging age.

It is also highly possible that by removing a young chick and placing it in a bowl that the sudden change in temperature has stressed the chick. Mother nature is a very powerful force and whilst most of us will never understand how a hen knows what temperatures the eggs need to be to hatch and at what temperatures the chicks need to be kept during the various stages of growth interfering in such things can and does have dire consequences.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:22 am    Post subject:

That is a very simple an logical explanation...

There are other issues, like being forced to stand and use the legs before bones are devaloped. the legs are one of the last bone structures to harden. it can cause deformity and pressures on nerves later on.
Chicks in the nest are in the dark or near dark, light or sudden changes ...
Motion is another possibilty...
Even picking or scooping up may place stress on interal organs at a young age.
These could all cause stress.
Add to that, hygine, where immune systems have not had a chance to fully devalope...plus change of air and temps...

I would have to agree with kaka-riki
Dont handle very young chicks.

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ksue
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject:

OK it is possible that i did handle them from too young but it is not like i took them out on cold or even cool days i am very very aware of hygiene i work with young babies and forever clean my hand both before and after anything i do ( even between feeding my birds in different cages) I only handled them the times i took pictures so maybe once a week. but I am prepared to take fault for that. The one that died in the bowl they are already using there legs so i dont think that is the problem and I filled it with nesting material not just a cold bowl and palced a clen tea towel over it to keep in warmth (again not that it was a cold day in fact very warm).
Well the oldest hen that is left is still going strong so hopefully all will go well from here i think i will maybe keep her as a pet and give my pair to a freind i know twith a big 12 foot aviary i am obveously not cut out for breeding
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Cattscapes
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject:

Hi Guys i tend to disagree with Steps and Greg in this case. Kellie i beleive from reading your past posts that you would not be to blame for the deaths from handling to much. My guess is the second one was probably on the way out when you move them. Has anyone questioned the diet. Maybe something they ate coarsing sour crop. It is easy to lose young if feeding sproated seed if it goe's off. I am not saying it is great to handle young but i usually check mine at least every second day and i ring my birds which is stressful in its self and my loses are very low. Kellie dont give up after this set back. It took me over 12 months to breed my first pied. That was 3 years ago. Last year i breed over 70 and i already have over 20 young this year. Cheers Kev
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:42 pm    Post subject:

Kellie,
I am surprised by your comment in regard to "giving in". Working with small children you would underfstand that no 2 babies are alike. If you apply that to birds you will have a better understanding of what is happening and help you to find a solution to the problem.

We have invested thousands of dollars in avairies and taken every possible step to keep our birds in "perfect condition". Leading up to Christmas I had 15 young chicks in various nests. Of those we pulled 10 for handrearing. Our handrearing involves using the best equipment available, including brooders and several different types of rearing mix. The end result is that 3 birds survived.

Most breeders have good years and bad years. Kevin is on a role at the moment BUT the challenge for him will be rotating his stock without losing the fertility levels he currently enjoys. I have been where he is now and probably should have been satisfied with breeding large numbers of birds from good stock but instead chose to take a gamble on different mutations.

Dont let one little setback put you off. My suggestion would be to keep the surviving chick and find a mate for it. Eventually they will breed and you will have more young. The most important thing is that having been a survivor in adverse conditions this little one should be of strong character and that is what ALL breeders should be striving for in their breeding stocks. Take positives from your experience and I am sure you will one day be as proud of your achievements as what Kevin is.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Another example..we have a pair of Kings and pair of Crimsoms...Not Cheap birds in NZ
These where meant to breed 3 yrs ago....Sure they laid and we got nothing ..till this yr...2 out of about 9 eggs...for the kings....The crimsoms laid, and again nothing....
Again add up the 1000s of Dollars in Avairies, just for these 2 pair, then feed for 3 or 4 yrs, then the intail cost of the birds
We know their is nothing wrong with the pairs...just something we havnt worked out yet....
Then this yr, our pairs of yellow kakariki, 1 pair lays then leave the nest, the other for some reason mated then went into moult...
A pair of reds we realy didnt intend to breed off, breed...Another pair we realy want to breed only getting 4 chicks off, and only 2 of those are along the lines we are looking for...
OH and we lost the tourquiosine chicks, and the burkes are not being very productive either..
We are just having a bad year...thats the way it goes....

I thing breeders dont mention much, is their failures...failse pride..
Things like late springs, hot winters, sudden thunder storm right over head,, a early summer unseasonal hail storms and drop in temps...All have an infuence...and we have had every one of those this yr signlol

us Give up? why...without the downs, we have nothing to measure the good times by and would never appreciate them..no pain no gain.

Then throw in that we in NZ kill off most of our stock each because of stupid DoC mentality....

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:23 pm    Post subject:

Kev,

In response to your question on sour crop. The sprouted seed is first consumed by the parents and the food passed on to the young is regurgitated. The chances of this causing sour crop is very remote. Sour crop in young chicks is more likely to be from dehydration in the chicks. Food drying out before it has time to pass may create problems but in general terms the diet should be centred around the breeding birds. Making sure they have plenty of food and it is being consumed should ensure that the young are being fed sufficiently.
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ksue
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject:

You are never going to beleive this anyway...my hen has just escaped.....I went to give them fresh veggies and my dogs were jumping around and must have spooked her and she gone...........If i could swear on here id be banned for sure.....I cant hear her anymore and he is screamming out for her.........I dont think he will feed the chick he never has he is never in thye box.....what the hell do I do now
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ksue
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject:

I just got her back i was literally sitting here crying my eyes out about the whole thing and i heard smack on the window....I knew instantly what it was...the dogs were sniffing her but didnt touch her.......she is not looking good though.....i shoved her in the box but she looked really dazed and her feet were srewed up........I hope she makes it Sad

About the giving up it not just the loss of the babies I have had this pair for a year now and they have been laying and nothing........then I got one babie that died over night........then eggs eggs eggs.........I took the box away and they started nesting in the food bowls so i put the bow back and I got these babies and everything seems fine....then bam 2 dead.....it just seem like nothing i do is right....I am not sure if you all remember but she is a rescue hen that came from a bad place but i got her healthy and shes freindly.....but maybe there is just somthing not right with her.......its not like i am trying to breed anything fancey just a living bird would be fine.....i guess it is all just very disheartining for a first timer....I have done so much reasearch and listen to all the advice and it just seems like nothing works......prob just feeling sorry for myself Laughing
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I am not sure if you all remember but she is a rescue hen that came from a bad place but i got her healthy and shes freindly.....but maybe there is just somthing not right with her


THAT could well be another problem....
What happens when they are young certainly effects how they breed, look after young, life expectacy etc...we dont breed off any of our 'rescued ' birds..its just not worth the hassle.
Parents from a reputable breeder who genuinely cares for their birds certainly produce better and far more reliable results

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