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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - New Zealanders, help!!
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New Zealanders, help!!

 
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Peter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:13 am    Post subject: New Zealanders, help!!

When i look around at local markets, i realise that there are no pure red-fronts any more. Probably there are but they are hardly to find. Besides, how can i be 100 % sure to have a pure form. Reds en yellows have polluted each other to much.
Most things that catch the eye are: orange tinted hat, red hat with some yellow feathers, a big sized red-front with orange iris.

One of the things i would like to know is, what is a good size of a red-front? They say it have to be 27 cm. But is this an average size or an extremity? My biggest one is about 24-25 cm.
I have seen a difference in texture of the back. Which belongs to the reds and which to the yellows? We also donít know what kind of (sub)specie came to Europe.

What we need as non-New Zealanders are some good detailed pictures from different angles so we can visualise and rebuild a red-front who approaches the pure.
My request to you New Zealanders is, send in as many as possible, pictures of good quality.

Peter
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:33 am    Post subject:

Size...forgive my ignorance, but I have never measured a bird, just seen small runty, ave and big males. Can u post method of measuring so we have a std.
We do get a variation in tail length, even between batches off the same parents
Back....this can vary from deep green to a deep green background with a brownish/grey (and from photos of pieds) colouration. The brown tends to fade as the bird gets older.
The Crown .....varies from bright red (a little deeper red than the iris)to a deep crimson. Sometimes there is a very slight faint yellow (one hast to look very hard to see it) on the edges of the crown. When one looks at the breast one sees a yellow tinge, a little less tinge than this.

If u could post some pics in the mutation album and we will do our best to duplicate the angles/views for the reds and yellows. That way we can best give what u are asking for for best results.

Many of u guys offshore do some very serious mutation and breeding/research and stuff. Much of this unable to do here, due to flight sizes and permit restriction etc. Personally I do believe there is so much we also can learn for the future with sharing of this information.

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Peter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject:

The consideration of the size came to me yesterday when i removed the big one in to another cage. I took a graduated ruler and measured him.
I was surprised that he is only 24/25cm tall. 27cm must be an awesome bird. That's why i was wondering if this is an extremity or an average length.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject:

Working at home today rather than on site...just been having lunch on the deck,and since the main breeding flights are directly off the front deck I took some measurements...
A perch is located 90 deg on the front wire.
As the kikes came up to the wire, side on I watched at what part of the wire they where from the end of the tail to tip of head in a natural stance.
Main breeding red male....little over 27cms
Couple male chicks 4 to 6 months, off him in, the next flight....26cm and 27cm
The chicks off him from previous to the above, are a little smaller, that I think could be due to not feeding protein back then..(see another thread re adding meat protein to diet)
Also the female mother is not large when compared to her female offspring. She is sitting again at the moment (4th batch since Oct) and didnt come out.
Measuring when they are hanging on the wire gives a much smaller measurement....the 27cm goes down to 23.5...they have their legs forward of the body and tend to hunch up.

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gecko
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject: iris colour

Whats the deal with the iris colour for yellows? Can that be a teltale to a hybrid? I saw that mentioned before on another thread but now I can't find it d'oh!
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:55 pm    Post subject:

yellow has a orange iris the red a red iris
above is a button...search..... if u type say iris in its an easy way to find different posts....works like a word index in a book. thumb

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject:

Another question.
Is it correct when i say that the crown of a yellow makes a more roundish shape in comparison with a red who makes a more squarish shape?

Is it normal that the extension behind the eyes can be blurred in comparison with the crown?

Sorry for this details but it is verry important to me so that i can make a good image of a pure normal red. duno

Peter
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject:

Peter wrote:
Another question.
Is it correct when i say that the crown of a yellow makes a more roundish shape in comparison with a red who makes a more squarish shape?

No I don't believe so, from our kikes and others I have seen, the crown on both varies slightly in shape between individuals...I would not be surprised that the crown shape ends up being sort of like a finger print....
Quote:

Is it normal that the extension behind the eyes can be blurred in comparison with the crown?

I believe so, some have a 'spot' others its like a stripe thru the eye. It also varies a little in shape[/quote]
Quote:

Sorry for this details but it is very important to me so that i can make a good image of a pure normal red. duno


This is what the site is for m8 signlol

IF I was to set stds from the crown as to the ideal show bird.
The crown would extend up over the head ending just behind the rear edge of the eye, the top edge would be a nice round or apolitical shape.

The eye band (mask) would extend evenly beyond the eye in a slightly triangular fashion also ending in a rounded end, at the point of where it goes thru the eye being almost or same width of the eye

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Peter
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject:

Indeed, that would be about like the one on your avatar. Beautiful Bird.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:38 pm    Post subject:

Thats my breeding Dad, his off spring are far better birds. he does have a very red crown the off spring are dk red /crimson.
Next season I have my eye on one of his sons

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Hi guys,

I wanted to take a review of the older threads, as every time I do, I seem to catch small details I didn't realize before.

I hope you don't mind I bump this very old thread, as I find it quite interesting, maybe helpful for some of the newer guys like me.

There are a few things that really catch my attention, and I would like to discuss:

- On the red fronted, the yellowish edge of the red crown. I have observed this trait on some of my birds, and even on some internet pictures. I thought that it could be a hybrid characteristic, but after reading this... does it also show on pure NZ yellow crowns?

- Shape of the "eyebrow" or "eyepatch" of red fronts: is it still showing the same variability on your stock or have you made any given selection on this trait?
What about the yellow fronted kakariki? Is there a variability in the intensity of the "yellowish" patch behind the eye like it has been mentioned in other threads?

Now, I wanted to comment about the red fronted crown... I have been paying special attention lately. Around a year ago I started to notice on my greens that the crown feathers aren't actually red, but the root of the feather is dark green and somewhere in the middle of the feather it turns red.
This might sound stupid but I was a bit puzzled because my greens could show sometimes a patchy crown (a few green dots in the forehead, don't know how to explain), and my goldchecks (recessive pied, 100% yellow body) had the odd yellow dot around the crown.
So... shall I consider this an hybrid trait, or does it also happen to the native NZ pure lines (or in case of mutations to the more advanced guys?).

Thanks for your help!

Cheers / Pablo

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
- On the red fronted, the yellowish edge of the red crown. I have observed this trait on some of my birds, and even on some internet pictures. I thought that it could be a hybrid characteristic, but after reading this... does it also show on pure NZ yellow crowns?


Yellow crown hybrids have red feathers in .around the crown...even to the extent that from a small distance the crown appears orange
Basically the reverse of a hybrid red crown.

Quote:
- Shape of the "eyebrow" or "eyepatch" of red fronts: is it still showing the same variability on your stock or have you made any given selection on this trait?

I have never seen or heard of yellow feathers in this area, and the shape of pure wilds can vary greatly, and is always there and very obvious

Quote:
What about the yellow fronted kakariki? Is there a variability in the intensity of the "yellowish" patch behind the eye like it has been mentioned in other threads?

The existance of the yellow patch behind the eye is still open to discussion.
Is the patch a sign of hybridisation or a variable within the soecies...like our fantail varies as one moves Nth to sth down NZ...quite bright in colour in the Nth and rather drab browns in the far Sth....this trat is noticable in many NZ bird species.
Personally and after talking with DoC and many others the concensis tends to be strongly a variable in the species rather than hybridiation....
We have both with and without in our breeding stock.

Quote:
This might sound stupid but I was a bit puzzled because my greens could show sometimes a patchy crown (a few green dots in the forehead, don't know how to explain), and my goldchecks (recessive pied, 100% yellow body) had the odd yellow dot around the crown.


None of our red have any green in the crown..pure red to deep crimson.

The antidopies doesnt have a crown (and is much larger) a 'long shot' thought...maybe way back in history Antidopies, yellows and reds where hybrisied in Europe????..throw back to then? Thu I have never found any documents of Antipodies being exported to Europe....
On the other hand, those Island are very remote, ships stopping in for water /food....could be????

Or maybe something to do with the mutations???
I dont know and would hesitate to speculate either way.

But our wilds . yellows and reds dont show any green, and have never seen it.

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Moko
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:27 pm    Post subject:

Hm.
Im very confused....
My pied male doesnt sound so hybrid now.....
Note to self: *Must get those photos up soon.*

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