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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Hi! 1st Post my Kakarikis
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Hi! 1st Post my Kakarikis
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Hi! 1st Post my Kakarikis

Hi all,

This is my 1st post on this Forum, so let me introduce myself.
I'm Dolf, 51, from Portugal.
I love psittacide birds in general, I have cockatiels, rosellas, 1 male Senegal parrot, and I just acquired a couple of kakarikis, reason why I joined this Forum, where I hope to learn more about these beautiful birds with the experts on this field.

I'm posting a few pictures of my kakarikis, and here is the 1st few questions: are they Lutinos? Or just yellow? Is there a difference?
I've heard there are yellow kakarikis with black eyes (therefore not real Lutinos?) and yellow kakarikis with red eyes (therefore the real Lutino mutation?), is this right?

I believe mine are Cyanoramphus n. novaezelandiae (red-fronted parakeets). They are both from 2007, around 4 months old.

Many thanks in advance.

Regards,

Dolf



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Last edited by Dolf on Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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ToryXX
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject:

hi,
you have nice kakarikis (exactly like my kakarikis) and I can ask you from where you know witch is the man and witch is the female?...because i see from your pictures ,they are the same size...and exactly the same body :D...and maybe they are both ,,girls,,
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject:

Hi Tory,

Thanks for your reply.

I find them very nice indeed Wink

Well, they are not the same size, the female (on the right in that picture where they are both visible) is quite smaller than the male. I don't know if this is normal, anyway that's the case with mine.

I wouldn't know the differences myself, I just trust the judgement of the breeders from whom I bought each one of them Wink

To ID them now is easy for me, not only because of the size, but anyway their ID rings are of different colors (in fact the male is from a Portuguese breeder, and the female from a Belgian breeder), kind of red for the male, black for the female.
Anyway, the male sings all day, and as far as I could notice it seems the female doesn't sing at all.

Regards,

Dolf
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:08 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Althought I got no answer so far concerning my questions about the Lutino mutation (red eyes, black eyes) I've read a couple of other topics here where this is discussed, which at least partially gave me some answers.

Anyway, I have another few questions, these ones concerning the female kakarikis.

Is this common that during the breeding period, the females lose almost all their feathers? Does it happens to all females, no matter which mutation they are?
And do they simply lose the feathers or do they tear them themselves? Or is it the male that does it to the female?

Is there a reason for this behavior? If they take them off themselves, would it be because on their natural habitat they need them for building the nest?

If they simply lose the feathers naturally during this period, what would be the reason? Do they need some special vitamins during this period, such as calcium or amino acids or others?

Thanks in advance,

Dolf
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject:

Females are generally smaller than males...
The male has a wider beak
The 3rd pic down...I would say is a male
The male is a male
I hope I got the pics around the right why when editing your post???
If not there is a edit button on the post that you can correct.

Loosing feathers:
No kakariki do not loose feathers...other than during moult, and the female can get a little scuffy when in nest.
If you are loosing feathers, it could be 1 of 2 things
The males are fighting...rare but can happen
or mites
Peter has good posts retreatment...seacrh button above and word search function in the 'quck search' block on the left.
I would treat....any new birds should be treated as matter of coarse.
Peters mite treatment also treats for most worms.

Also feather loss can be caused by poor diet, a lack of calcuim...calcuim has many forms, from cement and concret to egg shell, many are not usable by birds and animals
Cuttlefish, pumice sand, chop and chicken bones, crushed oyster shell, give the variety that is needed.....cooked egg shell doesnt.

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Dolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Thanks for your reply, Steptoe.

Quote:
I hope I got the pics around the right way when editing your post???
If not there is a edit button on the post that you can correct.


Yes, I noticed they were edited.
Yes, after that I've already used the edit button myself, only for the File Comments.

Quote:
Females are generally smaller than males... ...The 3rd pic down...I would say is a male


The one on the 3rd pic is the same as on the 2nd pic, and the one to the right on the 1st pic.
And this bird is definetely smaller than the male, so I really hope it's indeed a female Anxious

About loosing feathers: no, my birds are not loosing feathers at all (well, right now not the kakarikis anyway, have one female rosella that is now moulting but that is another story), but I wa just anticipating the question as I know that kakarikis (at least for the females), apart from the moulting period, they loose feathers also during the breeding period.
My two kakarikis are pretty young, both from 2007, around 4 months.
Not sure by the way, when I should expect them to moult?
Anyway, when I bought my male, I saw his parents, who are breeding now again, and I noticed the female (my male's mother) was in a very poor shape because of feathers loosing!
As I've heard and read about this before, I asked because I just wanted to be sure it's a normal thing with the female kakarikis when in nest.

Someone else told me today that the reason for this is to help keeping the eggs warm during this period!

As for the diet: I bought the male 5 days ago, and the female 2 days ago so right now I'm giving them mainly the Prestige Premium Loro Parque mix for Australian parakeets, from Versele-Laga, the same I use for my other Australian birds, cockatiels and rosellas. Althought my cockatiels and rosellas diet, despite not entirely converted because I prefer not to, are mainly Harrison all organic extruded food. I still give them the usual seeds mix, but only in very small quantities, and only for a short period each day. I'll try this with my kakarikis, but not right now.
Apart from that all my birds regularly have fresh fruits and vegetables, cuttlefish, eggfood, and a Orlux mineral bloc.

Thanks.

Regards,

Dolf
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hilly
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:16 pm    Post subject:

Hi Dolf,
w3c
Kakarikis when they nest don't pluck themselves any more than most parrots when breeding they all make themselves a brood patch so that they can cover the eggs and contact them with the skin.
As Steptoe explained they can get tattered from the continual work as most of the nutrition being pumped into them is going into egg laying and raising young which Kakariki do on a continual basis.
Because of their high proficiancy as breeders they require a very nutritious diet or feather production will probably lose out as most of the nutrition will be used to produce as many young as they can.
It is difficult to sex birds from photos sometimes as the angle they are taken on can be decieving they do look like a pair in the first photo and from what you describe they sound like a pair.
It looks like your birds may be lutino but it is hard to tell their eye colour as the flash may have some effect they also don't seem to have an iris ring like the black eyed clears but in this country they don't exist or they might in very small numbers and I haven't seen one personally so i'm not really that familliar with them.
Hope this helps .
They are beautifull birds can't wait untill we can get them here Pray
Cheers Jenny
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:07 pm    Post subject:

Hi Jenny,

Many thanks for the w3c wishes and for your detailed reply which helps a lot Wink

Funny, because most psittacide I know don't pluck themselves as it seems kakarikis do. Of course I know some do it a little bit, some others a bit more, but all kakarikis breeders I know from other Forums seem to agree no other parrots pluck themselves as much as kakarikis when breeding.

From those I have, neither the cockatiels or the rosellas pluck themselves during breeding period!

Is it wise to let them breed on a continual basis?
I know for example they are sexually mature at about 5 months, but I've read it's not convenient to let them start breeding before they are 1 year old. Also that they should breed no more than 2-3 times a year, otherwise it can be too tiring and stressful for them. Any truth on this?

By nutritious diet you mean with a good fat value?
For most of my birds I try to reduce as much as possible the most fat seeds such as sunflower, and as I mentioned on my previous post the main diet for most of them is those Dr. Harrison pellets, containing low fat.
So, for kakarikis, because of what you say, but probably also because they are very speedy birds, never stopping for long periods, flying around, exercising all the time, a diet like the one I give them (Prestige Premium seed mixtures - Australian parakeet Loro Parque Mix) is it appropriate? Plus for the moment eggfood too. So far they haven't touched the apple or kiwi I gave them! I'll start giving them some vegetables too, such as carrots, pumpkin, spinach, broccoli.
Anything else they usually like and you'd recommend for a healthy bird?

I'll try to get new pictures from my female (I hope it's one Laughing ).

What mutation you don't have in Australia? Lutinos?!

I visited your country back in 93, been mainly in NSW and Queensland, and in some places (specially Byron Bay where I remained most of the time) it looked like paradise for psittacide lovers! Hundreds and hundreds of birds of different species flying over our heads or even eating on the floor in some places! Simply amazing and extremely beautiful! Almost as in a dream you don't want to end Wink

Cheers,

Dolf
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:29 pm    Post subject:

Well, while waiting for new pictures of my female, I cropped one of those shown above (the one where both male and female are visible), and cropped another one not previously posted, then with Photoshop I adjusted the brightness and contrast (as the originals are a bit dark because taken against the sun light) .

Hope the size is ok, this time rather than using Photobucket I'm uploading them directly from my computer.

Dolf



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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I know don't pluck themselves as it seems kakarikis do. Of course I know some do it a little bit, some others a bit more, but all kakarikis breeders I know from other Forums seem to agree no other parrots pluck themselves as much as kakarikis when breeding.


Kakariki of any parrot are the lreast prone to pluck or loose feathers

And what happens inside the nest???
Well... put it this way...24/7 CCTV survervance...inside the nest...
Yes occassionaly in the middle of the night they do get into a bit of pruning...thats about it...
As for making the nest, they just grap a 'handful' of nesting material and jump up and down.

Kakariki will get egg bound, before loosing feathers when nesting, because of poor diet, mainly Calcium...this is usually fatal.
See sticky thread on Diet.

We do not feed any supliments, other than a few small cat biskects each week...from 70 or 80 birds a yr, we may loose 2 or 3...these are usually those that are deformed from natural causes
ALL our birds, from kakariki to kings are avairy reared...except the Jap quail.

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject:

Dolf,
Here in Australia we started with both the black eyed clear mutation and also a form of fallow mutation. After several outcrossings and by combining the two mutations we now have a genuine red eyed yellow bird that is very similar to the mutation found in Europe.

It has long been suspected that the "Lutino" mutation found in Kakariki is actually a combination of the black eyed clear and the fallow. Our test matings have tended to prove to this theory is correct. There are still some European breeders that maintain the Lutino is in fact exactly that but I am not aware of any breeders in Europe that have taken the time to confirm the genetic makeup of their "Lutino". Hope this explanation helps answer your question.
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hilly
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:51 pm    Post subject:

Hi Dolf,
It is possible that kakarikis have more problems internationally that aren't as prevalent in Australia and especially New Zealand as climate and humidity can have a bearing also if the birds are bred indoors as our birds are generally all bred in outdoor aviaries all year round.
Also as the gene pool is more limited there is a propensity to breed in behavioral faults just as easily as new mutations so plucking of Kakarikis is not encountered much here at all. I have attatched a couple of pictures of a hen of mine that is currently rearing her third brood and as you can see her feather condition is still not too bad, there is no plucking at all.

As for feed, we don't have those brands available, that I know of, but we have similar types, most people here at present don't feed commercial diets as it is still trying to get a foot hold and is not economically viable as it is very expensive and Kakarikis tend to spread it all over the floor.
Mine get pelleted food mixed up in their soft food mix as well as whatever calcium supplements I can provide them and whatever fruit and vege i have on hand.

There are no hard and fast rules with feed and you can only provide whats on hand Kakarikis just eat plenty of it especially when you have up to, and sometimes over ten babies in the nest,(someone i knew had a pair that fledged thirteen once Shocked )
There is already some great advise on feed on the thread that Steptoe mentioned.
As far as how many broods you allow your birds to have, stopping them is almost impossible as the hen relays well before the babies are due to leave the nest and sometimes i have had the next brood start hatching before the last of the previous brood has left the nest.

cheers Jenny



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Dolf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:22 pm    Post subject:

Guys,

Many thanks for your replies.

In a rush right now, so will reply later.

Jenny, I wish I had taken pictures of that female in poor shape I saw. Nothing to do with your female, who looks in perfect condition and is very beautiful.

More later.

Regards,

Dolf
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject:

Kaka-riki wrote:
Dolf,

It has long been suspected that the "Lutino" mutation found in Kakariki is actually a combination of the black eyed clear and the fallow.


I have to disagree with that. To my knowledge it is impossible to produce a Lutino phenotype with a Black eyed clear.
The difference between them is that a Lutino has a melanine loss of 99% while the BEC has a 100% loss. The remaining 1% melanine in a Lutino is vissible as a faint green glow when looking at the bird from a certain angle. A BEC doesn't have this glow because he has lost all melanine.

So, the loss of melanine remains 100% even when we combine the BEC with a type of Fallow. We can even cobine the BEC with more red eyed diluted mutations. The result remains the same.

Another characteristic of the Lutino is that he has a pale yellow colour. Any combination with any form of pied increases the amount of yellow. This is also seen in other species. That is why the BEC in Europe is called 'Golden yellow' or 'Goldcheck'.

And then there is the iris. A Lutino displays a red iris. A BEC removes the colour of the iris to some degree.

There is evidence that a darker type of Fallow is allelic with the Lutino. Matings of both mutations results in a colour between them (intermediar). This means that the darker type of Fallow is actually a Bronze Fallow.
There are pictures of the intermediar birds in the Gallery. See Rob van Opbergen's album (Kakariki).

Greg, would you show me some pics with a close up of the eyes of your Lutino's?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject:

Quote:
And then there is the iris. A Lutino displays a red iris. A BEC removes the colour of the iris to some degree.


Keep in mind I have no idea what Im talking about when it comes to mutations...
Observation of our wilds, there is what appears a natural variation in the iris colour from red down to a almost orange.

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