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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Molting? Or mite?...
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Molting? Or mite?...
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Molting? Or mite?...

Hi,

Reading about mites in another topic, I just wonder what's the case with my male kakariki right now.
Posting a couple of pictures, that I hope might help visualise how he looks like.

He has been loosing a lot of feathers lately, that's a fact. Amazingly, the female, who is the same age, hasn't been loosing any feathers so far!

So, with the help of these pictures is it possible to say if this is a normal molting, or if it could be a mites problem as mentionned on another topic by another member of the Forum?
The reason I ask is because even if he is loosing feathers from his entire body, there are two spots, each of them on each side of his head, just above those red feathers behind his eyes, that I noticed right when he started loosing his feathers, and still remain a space with no feathers until now!

Thanks a lot for any help.

Regards,

Dolf



IMG_1756-resized (Custom).jpg
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The spot on the left side of his head.
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IMG_1756-resized (Custom).jpg



IMG_1758 (Custom).JPG
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With the female, whose feathers look fine, no molting or else. Male spot on right side of his head still visible, as well as the lack of feathers on his entire body.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject:

That is not molt
A kakariki with good diet, mineral intake will just look a bit scruffy
I rem back when 1st seeing kakarki in another breeders avaiary, he appologised for them looking scuffy, and they where in molt, my thought to this OH ? are they?

Birds when in molt , do not loose feather random, they loose them on pairs, one from each side. This is most noticable with tail and wing feathers
U will se on on the ground, and with in hrs, the pair to it.

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Dolf
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:24 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Quote:
That is not molt


So if not molt, what could it be?

Quote:
A kakariki with good diet, mineral intake will just look a bit scruffy


I guess you mean when molting.
But how to explain that if not molting, the female is in much better shappe, having exactly the same diet?

Quote:
Birds when in molt , do not loose feather random, they loose them on pairs, one from each side. This is most noticable with tail and wing feathers
U will se on on the ground, and with in hrs, the pair to it.


Well, I can't be 100% sure about that, I mean, if he is loosing feathers on pairs, but watching the pics again and watching him too, it seems he is not loosing all these feathers (and there have been quite a lot on the ground lately) randomly. For example both spots on his head are exactly at the same place on each side of his head. You may notice that the same applies to other areas of his body, such as the wings and tail.

Anyway, both the male and female are about the same age, so is it normal that they don't molt at the same time, if this is molting?
I have other birds that don't molt at the same time even thought they have the same age, but not knowing much about kakarikis... My guess is that it would be normal, but it's just a guess.

Thanks.

Regards,

Dolf
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject:

Kakariki in Europe are known to mold terrible with bald spots. When I started with breeding Kakariki the vet discovered mites. Since then I tread my birds a couple times a year with Ivermectine. I have about 50 Kakariki and they have never bald spots. Until recently, there was a female bird who started to loose feathers on the head and later on the chest. I've treated her 3 times with Ivermectin with no effect. Besides that, the bird is in a very healty condition.

So, there are other causes of baldness. Is it a dissease, hormonal? I don't know.
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:44 pm    Post subject:

Hi,

Thanks Peter.

Ivermectine is as far as I know for parasites, worms (such as nematodes, capillaria, etc), right?
As a matter fact I started my yearly treatment to all my adult birds today, with a similar product (containing "dietilendiamina" - not sure if that's the right name in english but should be similar anyway - ). But that was not because of this lost of feathers of my male kakariki, just because it's something we should do twice a year as you mention.
Anyway, we know that kakarikis, because of their habit to go on the ground, are among those birds who really need such regular treatment.
Mines are inside the house, but as they love to spread food all around, even in an indoors cage they still love to "dig" on the floor, so it's rather preventive. Another thing they do that I really dislike is to have bath in the water recipient! Even if they have a pool for that effect they simply ignore it and still prefer the water recipient for their bath! wall
Along with the ring necks, kakarikis are in my humble opinion NOT among the cleanest birds I know. Rosellas are definetely the cleanest I know, probably followed by the cockatiels, but even them far away from the rosellas.

Anyway, back to the subject, are mites a kind of worms? d'oh!
Are these mites internal or external? Think

Thanks.

Regards,

Dolf

PS: Peter, just as a side note, my male kakariki was born here from a local breeder, but my female is from a Belgian breeder, as she has a Belgian ring, maybe one of yours?... Wink
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:45 pm    Post subject:

Dolf wrote:


Ivermectine is as far as I know for parasites, worms (such as nematodes, capillaria, etc), right?


Ivermectin is effective against some worms (such as round-, lung and eyeworms) but worms like capillaria need another product (Panacur).

Dolf wrote:

Anyway, we know that kakarikis, because of their habit to go on the ground, are among those birds who really need such regular treatment.
Mines are inside the house, but as they love to spread food all around, even in an indoors cage they still love to "dig" on the floor, so it's rather preventive. :


I do not fully agree with that. From my opinion Kakariki are not prone to worms when they have a solid floor like concrete. Worm eggs need a moistered environment, like dirt, to develop.
My Kakariki are in an outside aviary (holding). The floor is made of cobblestones. In the middle there is a sandpit where they can dig in. This is always dry. So far I never come across worms at my birds.

Dolf wrote:

Another thing they do that I really dislike is to have bath in the water recipient! Even if they have a pool for that effect they simply ignore it and still prefer the water recipient for their bath! wall


Kakariki need another approach concerning feeding. It is better to offer drinkingwater in a way they can only reach it with the beak. Some breeders here in Belgium use the kind of bottles they use for rodents (rabbits, hamsters).
Vegetables and seed I offer in deep bowls which are on a meshwork. The mess is catched up in a container below.

Dolf wrote:

Anyway, back to the subject, are mites a kind of worms? d'oh!
Are these mites internal or external? Think :


Feathermites are microscopic parasites who live in the root of the feathers. They feed themselves with keratin. A product like Ivermectin pour-on becomes assimilated trough the skin into the bloodstream. In the same way it reaches the mites.

Dolf wrote:

PS: Peter, just as a side note, my male kakariki was born here from a local breeder, but my female is from a Belgian breeder, as she has a Belgian ring, maybe one of yours?... Wink

That would be a coincidence. I use 2 types of rings. Each of a different society. They start with the initials AOB and BVP.
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Thank you very much for all the clarifications, Peter.

Quote:
Ivermectin is effective against some worms (such as round-, lung and eyeworms) but worms like capillaria need another product (Panacur).


Quote:
Feathermites are microscopic parasites who live in the root of the feathers. They feed themselves with keratin. A product like Ivermectin pour-on becomes assimilated trough the skin into the bloodstream. In the same way it reaches the mites.


The product I talked about yesterday (in fact the commercial name of the drug is "Intervermes", produced locally, and "dietilendiamina" is what's in the composition) mentions on the notice that it is efficient against all roundworms, such as nematodes, heterakis, capillaria, etc
I know many breeders here prefer for their birds drugs that are used for pigeons.
But I know that Ivermectina can also be found here, so I guess I'll try to find it if my male kakariki doesn't look better.

Quote:
Worm eggs need a moistered environment, like dirt, to develop.


So having a metal floor, and the fact I clean every cage once a week, I guess mine shouldn't be prone to worms either. Hope so anyway.

Quote:
Kakariki need another approach concerning feeding. It is better to offer drinkingwater in a way they can only reach it with the beak. Some breeders here in Belgium use the kind of bottles they use for rodents (rabbits, hamsters).


Thanks for the plan, I guess I'll change my water recipients.

Quote:
That would be a coincidence. I use 2 types of rings. Each of a different society. They start with the initials AOB and BVP.


Well, I know I should have the inscriptions on her ring somewhere, just can't find it right now.
Anyway, I just mentionned that because I know the guy I bought that female from imports most of his birds from Belgium and I remember checking her ring when I bought her and confirming she comes from a breeder in your country.

Regards,

Dolf
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject:

There are some very good threads in the 'Vets Section' of the forums...
Articules by a World respected Senior University Lecturer/researcher in Avariarian veterenary, and a specia;ist in NZ birds
How to check for mites and worms, detailed treatment with Ivermectine by the latter and Peter, plus other alternatives
And be awhere there are 2 forms of Ivermectine, use the right one..(in posts mentioned above .

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Dolf
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:12 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Many thanks, Steptoe, I'll check those threads.

Regards,

Dolf
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Dolf,

I have a question to you about the molting process but others may give their opinion too.

Here in Belgium, the molting process starts about February (mid-winter). Actually it is a kind of pre-moult and doesn't take long. The main moult starts about end July, that is when daylength starts to decline. So, my reasoning is that daylength has a strong influence on moult.

Except this year whe had a verry hot Spring compared to other years. The pré-moult lasted until the main moult cause I've found lots of feathers this period. Now whe are in mid-Summer and moult still continues. So, dry warm air must have a stronger influence on moult.

A few weeks ago I was in the south of Spain, not far of the Portugese border. There I realised that daylenght, although in the same time zone but southwards, is much shorter then in Belgium. There was a difference of at least 2 hours. Temperature is also higher and can differ 10°C.

It is my knowledge that countries closer to and around the equator have a lower difference in daylength between the longest and shortest day. In Belgium it is at least 7 hours. Up to the north it can be 12 hours or zero difference.

I wonder how Kakariki respond to this difference in latitude and temperature?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:03 am    Post subject:

There was a thread ages ago, about daylight hrs/behavour stuff

Going from our avaiaries and those of a freind, all of these are placed in postions that have matked differences in shading and in effect daylight hrs.
I have not seen, suprisingly, any relationship to behavour and day length.
But even to the extent that the opposite of one would expect.

I think there is more influence from food and food type avalibilty, sunlight hrs (sunny days) and tempitures.

When we had hens, one could tell if we where going to have a warm or cold winter by when the hens would go off the lay and into molt...if early then a cold winter, some how they knew whay was coming up.

It seems kakariki are no where as sensitive, they breed when they are ready, almost any time that suits them.

I believe worming could also influence molting????

While all the kakariki in 1 avairy tend to go to molt together, those in another avaiary carry on breeding.

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Dolf
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Weird, I didn't get those usual notification emails for both these two last posts, from Peter and Steptoe Think

Peter, this is the only pair of kakarikis I have.
I got them (the male 1st, from a local breeder - he has mainly parrots, cockatoos, macaws, only one or two pairs of kakarikis - , then a few days later the female, on a pet shop, the owner imports most of his birds from Belgium and the Netherlands) in May. Both have rings from 2007, as I said the female has a Belgian ring.

So, about the molting: I don't know about February as I didn't have them yet, anyway, being from 2007 I guess both were born around January-February. So far, I haven't noticed no molting at all on the female, only the male started loosing feathers (molting or something else!) probably in late Juin, early July I believe.

Therefore so far I haven't enough experience with these birds to reach a conclusion about the relation between the daylenght or the dry warm air, and the molting process.

From other breeders in a national Forum (not necessarily kakarikis breeders as it seems not many are interested in these birds here) I believe most of the birds here have their main molt in the summer/fall.

As for my other Australian birds, rosellas and cockatiels:
Cockatiels seem to be very irregular and can loose feathers all the year round! At least I have feathers around their cage anytime! Maybe they loose more feathers in the summer.
My Rosellas seem to be more precise and molt between June and August.

Quote:
There I realised that daylenght, although in the same time zone but southwards, is much shorter then in Belgium.


Peter, I guess you mean the difference between daylenght in winter and in summer is shorter here than in Belgium, right?

Quote:
I wonder how Kakariki respond to this difference in latitude and temperature?


From what I read on this Forum, from the testimony of Australian and New Zealand breeders, and also European breeders, I suppose latitude and temperature have some kind of influence in the behaviour of these birds. Even only within Europe, it seems there are differences between the behaviour of these birds in northern countries (colder and with shorter days specially in winter) such as France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, and southern countries, such as Portugal.
But no matter in which country we breed them, molting shouldn't always be in summer/fall?

Quote:
I think there is more influence from food and food type avalibilty, sunlight hrs (sunny days) and tempitures.


Quote:
While all the kakariki in 1 avairy tend to go to molt together, those in another avaiary carry on breeding.


Steptoe, I believe everything might be important and probably influence the molting process, the breeding, the health, the general behaviour of kakarikis, as well as any other birds. But is that decisive at the point one bird molts in an opposite season as another bird?
In general your kakarikis don't they all molt at about the same time, even if there is a difference of a couple of months, don't they all molt in the (New Zealand) summer, or around that period? I mean is there some of your birds that can molt in your summer and others in your winter?

Quote:
It seems kakariki are no where as sensitive, they breed when they are ready, almost any time that suits them.


As for breeding, yes, I believe kakarikis are like cockatiels, and are always ready for breeding, no matter the time of the year, the season, cold or warm time.

My pair, even without a nest (for precaution, I decided not to offer them a nest before they are about 1 year old), and being only 7-8 months old now, they have already started flirting and even occasionally mate at least a couple of months ago! So from my observations with this pair, kakarikis (like cockatiels in that matter) seem to be precocius Romeos and Julietes... Laughing

Thanks for your posts, guys.

Regards,

Dolf
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject:

Yes if we have the Kakariki in a colony flight, and the longer they have been together, the closer in time they molt together

Latatude...Directly opposite side of the world here (Auckland NZ) is about 50 miles sth of Madrid, but rhe weather /tempsa etc are very different,

Quote:
Weird, I didn't get those usual notification emails for both these two last posts, from Peter and Steptoe

Yahoo, hotmail, gmail, some isp s in Canada, Aussie, France treat as spam
or often reject the mail because of tight DNS lookup mail rules

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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject:

Dolf wrote:


Peter wrote:
There I realised that daylenght, although in the same time zone but southwards, is much shorter then in Belgium.


Peter, I guess you mean the difference between daylenght in winter and in summer is shorter here than in Belgium, right?



No, I mean on the same day. I usually wake up around 5h45 am. The sun already shines. In the south of Spain, first signs of dawn was around 6h30 am.
In the evening it was much earlier dark. The difference was at least 2 hours in the same time zone.

Average temperature is also much higher in the European south compared to the nort. So, on can assume that Kakariki (or other parrots) respond to an average change of temperature/daylenght rather than absolute values. There is no trigger temperature/daylenght.
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Dolf
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Quote:
Yes if we have the Kakariki in a colony flight, and the longer they have been together, the closer in time they molt together


Ok, that's what I thought, all birds tend to molt around the same time.
By the way, when is it they usually molt in NZ? I suppose it would be during your summer time, which should be when it's winter in Europe, right?
I was in eastern Australia in 93, July-August-September, and if my memory is not deceiving me I believe it was spring time over there.

Quote:
Yahoo, hotmail, gmail, some isp s in Canada, Aussie, France treat as spam
or often reject the mail because of tight DNS lookup mail rules


I use my Yahoo account for the Forum, and until now have always received those email notifications, as it happened for this last post of yours. At least on Yahoo, even the mail they treat as spam, it usually shows, if not on the Inbox at least on the Bulk box.


Quote:
No, I mean on the same day. I usually wake up around 5h45 am. The sun already shines. In the south of Spain, first signs of dawn was around 6h30 am.


I lived in France for a few years (some 30 years ago) and spent a couple of months in Brussels, Belgium, but it was the winter.
Most of the time pretty dark days, lots of rain, snow, snow, snow...
As I remember there were days I don't even remember seing the sun.
Have no references for sunrise during the summer.
Today the sunshine here (Lisbon) was at 6:48am.

Quote:
In the evening it was much earlier dark. The difference was at least 2 hours in the same time zone.


Right now I believe the sunset here is around 20:00pm local time. Today it was at 20:34pm.

I wonder if the differences you mention have not to do with the time differences in Europe, don't they?

Regards,

Dolf
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