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pabloc
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:27 pm    Post subject: Books

Hi!

I've just ran a search on amazon for kakariki books. I have a few shots, but I don't find reviews or references to those books, and I wonder if they are worth they money.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kakariki&x=0&y=0

I know that someone from here had the kakariki color book from Dyer, but I don't know if it's really good, or we already have enough and more updated references here in the forum.

Does anyone have any of those books and do you recommend them?

Thanks in advance!

Kind regards,

Pablo

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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:51 pm    Post subject:

Hi Pablo,

I've never read the dyer book but from what I've heard it is mainly a collection of mutation pics.

The best book concerning the pure wildtype Kakariki is available online. It is called 'A history of the birds of New Zealand' by Walter Buller (edition 1888). And it is free. http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-BulBird.html
On this page it is also possible to download the complete Microsoft Reader e-book. You have to activate this.

Another interesting link is this one: http://rsnz.natlib.govt.nz/index.html
Here you'll find earlier notes of W. Buller and from other authors as well
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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject:

Forgot to mention. In that time the Cyanoramphus family was called Platycercus.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject:

Hi Peter,

thanks for your help!
I'll have a good look at those 2 links.
I gotta be careful with that 1888 edition, probably still has the ink wet on it
Whistle

From what I've read on the other post, Dyer's book probably is outdated and names of the mutations may not be totally right, plus it doesn't seem to show or explain anything that we don't have already here in the forum. And honestly... we have a load of pics on the gallery for reference.

Now I'll be naughty... when do you add a few new pics Peter? hehehe! devil

Thanks for the tips!

Kind regards,

Pablo

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May
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject:

Hi Pablo.... i got a book off ebay for 2 Its Kakariki by I.S. Dyer ..... its pretty ancient 1979 i think ... has no colour pics of birds just a few diagrams of the original NZ species with discriptions... it also has maps of where each type originated ...different islands etc. Its based on the authers personal study of birds bread in the UK and has a bit about imports over the last 200 yrs..... has a bit about behavior...feeding accomodation... breeding...and some general waffle...... BUT...... doesnt go into mutations at all... no mention of anything other than green... Crying or Very sad

I found the history bit quite intersting so was worth the 2 quid ....... but i wanted pics of different mutations n stuff and more info on how different colours have come about.....

dont know if this is any help......... i think ive got loads more info from the pics on here...... although still confused on how the hell a yellow bird gets here from green ones emb

i also found a site with books to buy new.... not amazon... but i cant remember it ... if i find it again i will post link
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject:

Quite frankly...As Peter says above..Buller is the most reliable
Modern books...have read most, not impressed, to the extent, I would despute most of what is in them..either about the birds or about the history...I get the impression the content is taken from other references /books and perpetuate misinformation...

It was because of this we created this site and because of the hands on experiance of the members here from around the world...this is where the reliable information is.

With thanks to Peter, and many of his posts, he has several links to historical documents and archives...
If he was to write a Kakarki book I would buy it without even openng 1st.
One day (time) I will dig out all his links and add them to the links section.

Rob another member here has a good site /information
http://www.kakariki.nl/eindex.htm

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject:

Hi May,

thanks a lot for the tip on the book. For the price... it's always interesting.
Even the other books aren't that expensive (US$20-30), and from almost every book you always learn something new.
As you say.. it's quite interesting to know the history and other misecellaneous data. I would say that here in the forum we have a lot of good info. on how to keep our kakariki, and very good info on breeding, cages/aviaries and feeding. Even we have a lot of practical information on kakariki specific genetics and mutations.

I think it's more worthwhile reading the whole forum than any book that can be out there. I don't expect any of the existing books to be comparable to the info. you can find on this forum.

Anyway... I think it's always good to get as much info. as possible, so that's why I thought about those books.

Quote:
although still confused on how the hell a yellow bird gets here from green ones

I guess you mean the goldchecks. It's "very easy". When you breed pieds, you get birds with varying patterns of green/yellow, and the trick is selecting those with more yellow generation after generation, until you get a completely yellow bird.

I will add this link that Peter recommended me once. It's quite helpful to understand genetics and mutations:
http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/articles.html
The book I'm actually buying is Terry Martin's book on parrot mutations. I've been told it's very good.

Steps... I totally agree with you. Peter has done his homework, knows a lot, is a very good breeder and still is a humble person, willing to share his experiences and help the unexperienced breeders. I hope he cheers up to write articles or a book, it will be great for the community and the species.

Rob's website is very good as well. Has interesting bits too. It's a pity that he is so busy that he can't drop by the forum so often. I hope in the future we have him back. I think he has a lot to say too.

I have to say that Steps advice is very good as well. You've got quite a few of great posts around here (even though their spelling errors) signlol

All in all I think we are a small but nice community over here. And as us the newer breeders start stepping up and getting more experience this will get more interesting. We have in our hands a species with a lot of potential.

Just my 2 cents!

Kind regards,


Pablo

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:22 am    Post subject:

Hi,

I have just come accross this artcile form NZ parrot society:
http://www.parrot.co.nz/Parrot.NZ.articles/article-kakariki.html

It gives some basic info. plus has a few nice pictures.

And talking about pictures:
http://www.aviceda.org/abid/birdimages.php?action=birdspecies&fid=20&bid=231
http://www.aviceda.org/abid/birdimages.php?action=birdspecies&fid=20&bid=230
http://www.aviceda.org/abid/birdimages.php?action=birdimage&bid=228&fid=20&p=1&pagesize=1

Regards /Pablo

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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:11 am    Post subject:

The Parrot Society Article by John Warne, with all due respect is an example of inaccuracies and research from perpetuated wives tails
John was an enthusiastic Kakariki breeder...and knows what he is doing.
But if one goes back to early settler diaries and observations, we find the initial destruction of Large populations of kakariki was by shot gun, decimating them by the late 1800s.
He also notes they where in small family flocks..again early recording are of huge flocks that would settle on orchards.
The tiri tiri population, I believe was an introduction instigated by Johns hard work...but against warning of private breeders DoC used hybrids as stock, today the cant be used as John intended, to repopulate other areas

Current distribution, althu maybe correct at the time of writing, have disappeared.
Red and yellow are now nonexistent or all but extinct in the Sth Island, the orange once common , is stated as common in the nth of the sth Island, now a handful exist in a remote valley in the sth and due to recent efforts have been introduced to out lying islands.
Private breeders had proven the orange was a separate species...but the dispute, or rather DoC no and still doesnt recognise the expertise of private breeders, would not concede the piont..till genetic testing came along...
So in the mean time they needlessly destroyed populations of the orange.
Some of the other species are now either highly endangered and even extinct due to gross mishandling an mismanagement by Government agencies

Captive breeding/housing ..Due to restriction placed on breeders in NZ by DoC, methods, experimentation have been very limited in NZ...again this is where the overseas breeders are way ahead of knowledge of these things than NZ breeders.

Mutations..I can state as fact, there are 2 mutations that exist in NZ, pied and a lutino..unfortunately these natural genes are not being actively preserved in NZ. Early settlers notes record mutations in the wild as rather common.

pure yellow crown in captivity in NZ is either non existent or at most a had full of birds
Red crown captive population would be lucky to reach 200 birds, and and the genetic base would be no more than maybe 3 or 5 breeding lines that in themselves are inbreed for at least 5 or 10 generations.

At the time of writing most of The article is mostly acrruate...except for research and references used for historical info.
The issue is, althu the article is dated in distribution, mutations, breeding etc and such, if you refer to other books on kakariki, it becomes obvious that these inaccuracies are still being used in modern publications.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:23 pm    Post subject:

Steps,

it amazes me the poor conservation policies that you have over there. As I told you in another e-mail, from outside it looks like NZ is a different country regarding nature conservation, but now that I hear your experiences and opinions (which are objective in my opinion) I see reality is quite different.

I still can't understand that kakariki can be on the verge of extinction, when at least yellow and red fronts are 2 of the most willing to breed species between parrots.
And what I can't believe is that you have just a 200 captive birds in NZ. In a bird show in Portugal I've already seen a cage with 50!!! That's crazy. And then... you have just a few bloodlines.
I think if you put together 4 or 5 European breeders' stocks you get more than that. And I'd say that in Oz the situation is far better than in NZ too.
And I prefer not to think about what you say about pure yellow fronted.

And then... it's quite stupid that you have to kill the youngsters. All it takes is just a few sample blood tests, 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever months of quarantine... and you have a batch of birds fit for repopulation, guaranteed disease free.

Honestly... if NZ government doesn't have enough funds and the expertise to keep on quarantine 50-100 kakariki/year... how do they manage to govern the rest of the country?

Seems that nobody in DOC is willing to learn from past errors!

By the way... how is the Orange fronted doing? I saw a documentary about them (I don't remember the website where you can download the video from). Are they effectively recovering? (I'm just curious).

Regards / Pablo

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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
t amazes me the poor conservation policies that you have over there.

Dont get me wrong, DoC has good ppl, and in most areas are way ahead of most countries
BUT so much of the management in many areas have lost the plot, are managers who have their heads stuck in the sand, So bloody interested in protecting their own little empires...and feel threated by anyone who may question their policies....either inside or outside the Dept.
They have created such a 'protection ' around their little hierarchies that lets say a urgent proposal is put forward re breeding a species...by the time one goes thru filling forums, committees, conferences, consultation, the next breeding season is damn near over.
The way DoC is set up, they are only responsible to them selves, in this atmosphere over a period of time, it is natural that an almost fascist environment evolves within and without the organisation, stifling good ideas, and proposals.

Stupid stuff
DoC always wants volunteers to pull weeds plant trees...
But when it comes to breeding a species, no it is a organisation who charge. The concept of a private breeder doing for the love is beyond the management concept...and even if it is considered, then the rules bureaucracy put it in place are so overboard and ridiculous.

NZ is not the only country, Aussie is not much better.

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May
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:07 am    Post subject:

this is all sooo interesting..... and makes me Sad Id really like to be able to do something positive but i dont know enough yet and ..... there seems like there is so much conflicting info when your just starting out... its difficult to know what to take on bored and what not to..... !!!!

Ive seen that clip too Pablo.... well the free bit Whistle was going to post a link but i cant find it now.......... Rolling Eyes i think it was a coservation site...?

i really dont get it tho...... NZ has such a unique bird population... and has lost so many species already.... that you would have thought the powers that be would be doing all they can to save what is left.... but obviously there has been mistakes and it sounds like its all gone a bit fubar.... But sureley with DNA testing n stuff once its proved what the 'pure breeds' actually are... breaders from all over the world could theoretically contribute to re-establishing good strong lines for recolonisation......

sounds like someone at DOC needs some help...... steps.... sounds like you know so much about this problem and are bit wall with DOC .....why dont you run a course on kakariki history and breeding.... and invite a few doc officials along to learn a few facts Anxious
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:57 am    Post subject:

The link u guys lost is in a new item on the home page.

Quote:
but obviously there has been mistakes and it sounds like its all gone a bit fubar


PC Political correctness also screws stuff up
EG the prange early days, dont take on board private breeders advice, and they decide to breed in big expensive PC avaries...then chass the young with nets to capiture...they died in transport....Now we all know kakariki ship well, 1000s of miles, a doz in a box 500 x 250 x 250.
And because PC says big, not a flight about 2.4x 1.2 x 2m heigh.

Then because of the knowledge off shore breeders have, we know kakariki will breed well in batyiers for mass producing..Sure maybe a bit extreme but so is near extinction..

Its not PC for DoC to remove wild eggs by gently forcing the hen off...so they wait for days for her to move...Breeders know it can be days before a hen may leave the nest...Yet breeders have been doing this for centuries.

Quote:
breaders from all over the world could theoretically contribute to re-establishing good strong lines for recolonisation......


Yes...but try to import a bird into NZ, any bird...its been about 20 yrs since the last one..
Yet one can import cats, dogs, fish, reptiles..none of which are native to NZ.

Yes NZ has lost a lot of species..it is PC to blame most on the early settlers and say the inginious population treasured the land...the reality is the inginous population killed off more species, and burnt laid waste to more forest before Captian Cook even got here.

Quote:
sounds like someone at DOC needs some help...... steps.... sounds like you
Well I tend to call a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel, a spade is used for digging, a shovel for shovelling out the stables.
So Im not exactly the most diplomatic of people. ..And not PC .
On the other hand w have a friend who has been fightung the issue for 20 to 30 yrs, a very respectable and nice person...resently he has tken the step..."I have had enough, i have a bad headache from banging my head against brick walls too long...Im out of here to relax and enjoy my retirement" that he definatly deserves.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 10:02 am    Post subject:

Steps,

I didn't mean to say that NZ doesn't care about protecting their natural resources, but my opinion is that they are letting the situation get too far.

Of course there probably is a lot of nice and good people in DoC, but... now let's imagine:
There's a factory with a lot of really nice and competent workers working there but... managers are incompetent.
Despite of the nice workers and their good will, what will be the final outcome?

I understand that there are some species that aren't easy at all to recover, as they are too demanding to keep and breed in captivity.

But... I think there are no excuses for such a bad management on kakariki.
If we are honest... they are one of the easiest birds to keep in captivity, at least the red fronted. Even a novice breeder is able to breed them succesfully, and they can breed in a variety of conditions, they aren't too demanding.

Quote:
Yes...but try to import a bird into NZ, any bird...its been about 20 yrs since the last one..
Yet one can import cats, dogs, fish, reptiles..none of which are native to NZ.


I think the same happens almost everywhere. Quite stupid policy.

By the way... I'm sad to say that your friend probably did a good move enjoying his retirement rather than fighting against a blind and deaf admin.
It's a pity that they aren't willing to let people help.

This makes me sad, as I had the hope that some countries in the world were a little bit different in this kind of things.

Regards / Pablo

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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:23 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I didn't mean to say that NZ doesn't care about protecting their natural resources, but my opinion is that they are letting the situation get too far.


yes..there is no budget (which is understandsable..we have to build roads and hospitals to) untill things get out of hand...which is where the private enthusist comes in...

Quote:
There's a factory with a lot of really nice and competent workers working there but... managers are incompetent.
Despite of the nice workers and their good will, what will be the final outcome?

That somes up things well, and it doesnt take ALL the managers 1 or 2 in the network of operations can hold damn near the rest up.


Quote:
I understand that there are some species that aren't easy at all to recover, as they are too demanding to keep and breed in captivity

Yes but does that mean just because a species is duifficult, not to give a private breeder a go...and I know of one example to do with Weka birds, a private breeder hit the nail on the head..they just breed for him, heaps, then DoC walked in one day and closed him down...no explanation given or required.

On a positive note the new news itam on the front page
http://www.kakariki.net/article-89-thread-1-0.html
I got an invite to it

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