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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Red Fronts Throwing Yellow Fronts
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Red Fronts Throwing Yellow Fronts

 
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Ben
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Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Red Fronts Throwing Yellow Fronts

Hi all,

Speaking to some people today they have a pair of Red Front Kakarikis (male pied and female pied cinnamon) that every second or so clutch they get one or two yellow front Kakarikis from. Am I correct in assuming that one of their parents (or both) even though they both look like pure Red Fronts (not an expert but know what to look for from reading posts here) are hybrids and possibly one of their parents where/is a yellow front?

Supposedly this pair of birds came from a reputable breeder which worries me greatly.

Are my concerns warranted?

No the new hen I purchased isn't from this pair of birds nor are the parents of my new hen from the same breeder incase you are worried I have a hybrid. Pray
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Steptoe
Site Admin
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 4550

PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
they have a pair of Red Front Kakarikis (male pied and female pied cinnamon) that every second or so clutch they get one or two yellow front Kakarikis from.


If the red front (crowns) have have little or no yellow feathers in the crown, they WILL NOT get a yellow crown
If they have a some yellow feathers in the crown, (look close at the crown of the kakariki in the banner at the top...now u know why it winks at u..my sick sence of humour ) they may or may not get off spring with a couple yellow feathers...NO more than that.

If u take a hybrid, breed back to a pure breed, then breed that back, after a few generations the blood line gets to the stage where it is over 95% red crown...basically considered a pure breed.

What can happen, if they breed yellow crown and red crown..they have removed eggs at sometime and put them back with the wrong parents..
Something we have done on occassions intentionally.
Usually when we are running short on room, and intend to leave the chicks after weaning time in the same flight as the parents..this makes distnquishing who is who difficult.....unless the chicks happen to be yellow crown raised by red crown parents and visa versa.

Bottom line, what they are saying is unheard off by us or kakarki breeders who have breed since the 1960s.

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Peter
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Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:48 am    Post subject:

Yep, I heard about it a couple of times. The chicks below are from such a couple of red fronts.


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Steptoe
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:23 am    Post subject:

Peter is a person who has a great creditablity and do not doubt.
Peter, are these 'throwing back' from a distant hybrid cross to being a 'pure' yellow crown?
and /or does the mutation have some influnence?
I have seen a pure bred pair of normals throw back a couple yellow feathers, and that is very rare.

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Peter
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Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:27 am    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:

Peter, are these 'throwing back' from a distant hybrid cross to being a 'pure' yellow crown?
and /or does the mutation have some influnence?


The owner bought them from a breeder who has only red fronts. There were no yellow crowns in his aviary. I don't think the mutation is of influence. What I do know is that it is easier to distinguish yellow feathers in the crown of a normal compared to an all yellow bird. Especially the edge of the crown.
I also don't think that there is any breeder in Europe who can claim that he has pure birds. There is always a yellow crown characteristic to find. Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's very subtle.
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Ben
Snr Member
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Joined: Jul 28, 2008
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:53 am    Post subject:

Thankyou for the replies guys.

The Yellow Front I was looking at was not in easy view due to the aviary's being several stages deep and he was in one of the middle cages. He looked to have a full yellow crow with no signs of the odd red feather apart from where they should be. I was unable to get a look as his rump etc to really tell.

As Peter said who can say they have pure birds. Anything could have happened way down the line be it in captivity or in the wild.

Has anyone experimented and had DNA testing been done to try and determine a hybrid?
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Steptoe
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 4550

PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Has anyone experimented and had DNA testing been done to try and determine a hybrid?

This has been discussed some yrs ago
Bottom line...No, other than establishing that breeders where right for decades that the orange crown was a different species
Note the orange crown has orange crown feathers...Not a mixtureof red and yellow giving the appearance of orange as in a yellow/red hybrid.
The general consencious of the genetic experts, from what I can gather, is the experiance of breeds with hybrids would be far more reliable than genetic testing
In capitivity, the will not inter breed unlessed forced to do so, and such forcing doesnt happen in nature...thu it doesnt mean it NEVER occurred.

We do have wild populations that do show signs of hybridisation...BUT this was a screw up....the intial release was of hybrids and no pure breed birds.

Quote:
The owner bought them from a breeder who has only red fronts. There were no yellow crowns in his aviary. I don't think the mutation is of influence.

I still feel, something here is not right...call it a gut feeling...We have seen a lot of hybrids, yellow/ red (appears to be an orange crown with yellow red feathers) and red/ yellow (red with a few yellow feathers)
We have seen where hybrids have been breed back to a very high % of normal red, no mutation, and have never seen or heard of a full throw back to a yellow crown...the odds would have to be astronomical.

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Steve
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Joined: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:03 pm    Post subject:

It took me a while to respond here, but thank you to Peter for passing me to this thread.

I have a pair of Kakariki, Green pied cock, Cinnamon Pied hen/BEC. The cock looks PURE red fronted, but the hen does seem to have a few tiny little yellow feathers at the top of the crown. I don't know if this means she is a hybrid or what but I didnt even take any notice until now.

She had 6 young the last nest, and they were all red fronted, and she had 10 young this nest. The last two young that emerged from the nest were both yellow fronted pieds (Which I've never actually heard of before). This wasn't an orange crown, it was as plain as day, yellow fronted. I didn't really know what was going on, so I got a friend of mine to check them, and he said they were yellow also. The other young from the nest all look to have perfect red crowns.

Ill try and get a picture of them for you guys as soon as i get in the cage next.

Im not entirely sure what to do with them though, I was going to put them with yellow fronted partners to try and get the Yellow Fronted Pied birds, but i'm not sure how the genetics work..

Steve
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