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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Split birds. Any indications?
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Split birds. Any indications?

 
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:08 pm    Post subject: Split birds. Any indications?

Hi everybody,

it's been for some time that I got to learn certain cockatiel mutations, even when just carried as split, will give some visual clues.

For instance wildcolor split whiteface cockatiels are darker, and have a more pronounced white "boundary" between the yellow mask and grey head.

Although sometime ago I asked Peter W. and he couldn't tell any special characteristics in split kakariki, but Peterlimburg said something that sprung my mind, and I would like to insist about this
Peterlimburg wrote:

It's an split cinnamon male, look to his legs, they must be grey or black.

It's said that when birds are split to pied they have maybe 1-2 toenails or toes white.

Maybe we can make a compilation of this characteristics when birds are split to a mutation.

Anyone can share experiences?

thanks to all

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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject:

To be honest, I always had my objections about this phenomenom. Therefore I first contacted a genetics expert of Mutavi. To my surprise he said that some splitbirds sometimes can change the normal phenotype. Shocked
When I check all my split cinnamon birds they are indeed much lighter. I always was of the opinion that this was caused by natural variation. Probably that's why my darker Fallows are always females. Applause
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject:

I'm not sure but I think I have another one. Probably this is a suplement on the visual split to recessive pied. A known Dutch budgie breeder once told me that some of his birds split to recessive pied aka Danish pied displayed a darker irisring. The dark eye is a typical caracteristic of recessive pieds in all species.
Some of the normals like below display sometimes a dark brownish iris ring. I wonder if this is an expression of a hidden recessive pied. Also the pink toe points out a hidden pied mutation. However the latter is not always reliable. See added article about visual splits in Cockatiels.



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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:46 pm    Post subject:

Peter,

thx for this valuable info.

Interesting note about the iris ring.

Very interesting article about pied cockatiels. I guess to some extent the pied mutations in kakariki may work with similarities to other species.

regards / Pablo

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
that some of his birds split to recessive pied aka Danish pied displayed a darker irisring

We have a few wilds with white toes...the isis varies the same as any of the other blood lines, from a almost orange to a deep deeper red.
This seems to be completely random
Non have the 'clear eye' and to make sure I know what Im looking for..is this no iris, like when chicks 1st come out of the nest for a couple weeks?

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject:

As stated in the article breeders strive for better pieds by accumulating pied genes. They consist of one major gene and many minor genes(dominant and recessive) plus modifiers. The author of the article likes to view these genes as building blocks. The recessive pied aka black eyed clear is the major block. The minor genes are the smaller blocks.
Most of the best pied kakariki are almost complete yellow(100% pied). Thus, a combination of the major gene along with a dozen dominant and recessive minor genes. When pairing such a bird with a normal the offspring will display the dominant minor genes(pink toe or visual spot on the nape). This is why many times a bird with a pink toe carries a hidden major gene.

Quote:
Non have the 'clear eye' and to make sure I know what Im looking for..is this no iris, like when chicks 1st come out of the nest for a couple weeks?


Yes, below the true expression of the eyes of a recessive pied aka black eyed clear.



With flash
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:02 pm    Post subject:

Peter,

in cockatiels there is a mutation called White Nape. Consists of a series of "pied" feathers in the nape of the bird and it's dominant with sf and df.
I still don't know if this can be bred for increased "pied" areas, and so far it's regarded as a non-desired trait.

Where I want to go is... do you think maybe the dominant pied mutation in kakariki (in Europe at least) is a group of those minor genes/alleles or modifiers that have been selective bred from something simpler (like white nape in cockatiels)?

Please correct me if I make a mistake, but I have the idea it's not possible or very difficult to increase the pied markings in dom. pied upon reached X % of pied. What I mean is... like there seems to be a limit which you can't go any further to increase the pied markings (with dom. pied mutation alone).

Maybe this is crazy and wrong but sounds to me like if we had a given number of minor pied alleles (the modifiers mentioned in the cockatiel article) and once we have the whole collection of modifiers we have reached the limit of yellow areas.
Those modifiers transmit mostly dominant?

And then the recessive pied could be the true pied mutation.

Does this make any sense, or does people understand it?
I repeat, it's just a thought, a question I make, maybe it's complete non-sense but I would like to express it here.
I'll review Terry Martin's book during the day to double check if what I said makes any sense.

Thanks for your help!

Regards,

Pablo

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject:

Peter:
Quote:
visual spot on the nape

Got a pic?
remember we dont have muations in NZ, and need to know what to look for....then I will figre out what you guys ar talking about..
Unless there is a possiblity of any mutaion 'symtoms' in kakarki, the gene stuff is not a feild I have any incentive to go into emb ....build another custom hot rod instead.. <v> ...you see my avatar? Imagine the one on the trailer, widened 12" a chop and channel each 1 1/2"..lowered and nice set of old school mags and 235x14x60 white letter tyres...electric windows, air con, power steering...and rides and drives like a modern car.
Yes I built both those in the avatar..didnt pay someone to do so.

Anyway ..peter got a pic signlol

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:49 pm    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:


in cockatiels there is a mutation called White Nape. Consists of a series of "pied" feathers in the nape of the bird and it's dominant with sf and df.
I still don't know if this can be bred for increased "pied" areas, and so far it's regarded as a non-desired trait.

Probably this is one of the dominant minor genes. I guess if there are no other pied genes added, it can't be increased.

pabloc wrote:

do you think maybe the dominant pied mutation in kakariki (in Europe at least) is a group of those minor genes/alleles or modifiers that have been selective bred from something simpler ?

Yes, that's what I believe. Because many of those minor genes are recessive it happens that such pieds suddenly pop up from nowhere. Thats why they sometimes are classified as recessive pieds which is not incorrect.

pabloc wrote:
Please correct me if I make a mistake, but I have the idea it's not possible or very difficult to increase the pied markings in dom. pied upon reached X % of pied. What I mean is... like there seems to be a limit which you can't go any further to increase the pied markings (with dom. pied mutation alone).

Maybe this is crazy and wrong but sounds to me like if we had a given number of minor pied alleles (the modifiers mentioned in the cockatiel article) and once we have the whole collection of modifiers we have reached the limit of yellow areas.

If you have a good number of minor genes the amount of pied quite extendable. I once saw a kakariki with 90-95% pied. The birds of Cattscapes show some good examples of collected minor genes.
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?set_albumName=album24&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Another thing to reckon with is that the mottle mutation is another building block.

Included a copy of a reply of Terry to Inte Onsman of the Mutavi group made on the genettics psittacin forum. Hope they don't mind. It describes the group of minor pied genes.



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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject:



a cockatiel from Mr. Duliere
I guess you can see the small white spot right behind the crest. It's a trait that inherits dominant, I'll drop a pm to Thierry to ask him if there's any way to work with that item.

What I mean is that, and I think it's where Peter maybe is pointing as per former conversations and this coversation too, maybe (just maybe) the dominant pied in kakariki is a collection of "modifiers" rather than a full mutation per se.
For instance in kakariki we have some definite traits like a "yellow ringneck", "yellow flight feathers", "yellow tail feathers". At least all my pieds show that trait.

Hope this helps.

regards / Pablo

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
Peter:
Quote:
visual spot on the nape

Got a pic?


The headspot can vary from a single spot to an inversed T.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:44 am    Post subject:

Peter,

I was talking about cockatiels, and didn't remember we have about the same "thing" in kakariki.

Steps,

I don't know how varied is the genetic pool in captivity in NZ, but maybe DoC should start to think that mutations will nevertheless show up anytime, and those birds are living beings, I find it unacceptable to get rid of them, when they are perfectly normal and healthy individuals.

Besides, I think the availability of mutations will awake some interest in NZ breeders and if DoC follows the right policies maybe everybody can benefit from it.
If you take a look around here, you find out that the guys having success with the species are all of them mutation breeders (Allen, Peter, Peterlimburg, Rob, etc...)
The knowledge and experience you get working with mutations helps a lot to understand and find methods to improve many other characteristics.

Just my 2 cents worth.

regards and have a nice weekend! / Pablo

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:30 am    Post subject:

A comparison of the (dominant) continental clearflight budgie with the dominant pied Kakariki.

1) Neckspot
2) Jabot
3) Area around and between the legs
4) Flights
5) Tail



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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
Peter:
Quote:
visual spot on the nape

Got a pic?
remember we dont have muations in NZ, and need to know what to look for....then I will figre out what you guys ar talking about..


Think Think :oops:
Steptoe, i think you are a little wrong, I have very good friends in Awamutu, first lived in Auckland. And they went sometime ago to the Otorohanga Kiwi House & Native Bird Park somewhere by Hamilton.
From the Pictures I got, i saw a yellow pied kaka. There are also antipoden kakarikis.

http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/Peterlimburg/?action=view&current=MVI_4470.flv



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