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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Linebreeding and selection
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Linebreeding and selection
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject: Linebreeding and selection

Dear colleagues,

as in another topic the subject of selecting and breeding has been raised, I would like to ask...

- Which methods do you use to linebreed your birds?

- How close do you get in-breeding?

- Any recommendations or examples about your breeding programs?

So far I had only a chance to talk about this with Peter Wouters, who back in the time suggested me I use 1 good cock and pair him with a number of nice females, then use the best of those 50% siblings and mate them together.

Myself, I can't really share any experience because I didn't have a chance to linebreed at all myself. When I had to move 2 years ago I had to downsize to 2 pairs, and this year all my chicks are "1st generation".

Thank you and kind regards,

Pablo

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Linebreeding and selection

pabloc wrote:

So far I had only a chance to talk about this with Peter Wouters, who back in the time suggested me I use 1 good cock and pair him with a number of nice females, then use the best of those 50% siblings and mate them together.



Yes, I know I said that before but from what I know now, things are going slightly different. Remember that a bird's appearance is a reflexion of the summary of dominant and recessive features. The recessive traits can be either vissible(homozygous) or not-vissible(split). The trick is to maintain the desired traits in a vissible form and in the same time collecting additional features from other birds.
It happened to me that an outcross with such a bird suddenly new(recessive) features appeared. The offspring were bigger, had a darker skin and a deep looking green.
I'm currently focused on that part of the line and would breed them back to the original part of the line.

Sometimes features can be enhanced by selective breeding. For example in Germany is a breeder (can't remember his name) who is known for his line of cockatiels with a large crest.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:29 am    Post subject:

Hi Peter

Quote:
The recessive traits can be either vissible(homozygous) or not-vissible(split).


I quite agree on that.

My point or my initial intention was to know how you guys work with your lines from a starting point and a short explanation of what might happen in the intermediate generations, etc...

Basically what you have explained here, is perfect.

By the way, is there any chance to see some pics of a bird of the original line, the outcross, and the resulting bird? I'm just curious.


I wanted to mention, mainly for the beginners like me... one point that is often overlooked: never let birds with the same faults breed together.
Don't ask me why!!!
(well... actually it was cockatiels, I paired 2 that have very very slightly crossed wings and now I have a bunch of very nice cockatiels but with their wingtips crossed a bit more. Had I been a bit more observative and that wouldn't have happened! d'oh!
Bottom line, always try to find birds that balance each other.

It's very interesting to read in English budgie forums how some good breeders discuss how they choose a particular male and hen and start looking at even the slightest details. It's a good exercise even if it's a different species.

I know this is common sense, but some times small details slip in and become bigger. And the damage is much more expensive to repair.

REgards everyone / Pablo

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Peter
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:29 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
By the way, is there any chance to see some pics of a bird of the original line, the outcross, and the resulting bird? I'm just curious.




This was the original father. I paired him to a cinnamon.


One of his sons. Note the nice round shape of the head. I paired him to a green pied.


Next generation. A normal split to cinnamon. Probably that's the reason of the dillute green. I paired this bird to a normal.


Next generation. Note the black skin, deeper green and higher muscular tone.


Female.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject:

Hi Peter,

thanks for the pics and awesome work on that line of birds. The start was actually great but this bird



thumb
really nice body shape, feather quality, etc...
skin and feather color is very intense. But that's general for most of your birds. When I saw them in flesh, it's like if they were "sparkling". Mine look a lot duller.
Diet is of great importance too, we had this conversation some time ago when you explained me about oxidation. Certain foods like sarracin, etc.. that are rich in amino-acids will improve oxidation, thus color of skin and feather will be darker and more intense.

As I told you a couple of days ago I have a nice goldcheck that I'm waiting to moult, but so far looks good. I think I might have a nice pied hen for him, or I could spare a green hen. I have 5 sisters I want to wait for 1 or 2 moults to make a final decision about this.
They are still young so I have time to decide, I could even use any of the veteran hens, but... so far my favorites are 2 young ladies (which are sisters in turn).
I'm a bit more partial to use a pied, and keep the green for the wildcolor line, although I could use her at a later stage as well to breed greens.

Any remarks or advice, as always, w3c!

Regards

Pablo



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Goldcheck male '09
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 Description:
Pied "sister" '09
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gf01.jpg
 Description:
Wildcolor "sister" '09
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Linebreeding and selection

Peter wrote:
The recessive traits can be either vissible(homozygous) or not-vissible(split).



Yes , and thats the problem, the not- vissible traits. Both, male and female, can have those hidden recessive genes in their body.
I have , i'm sure that females who are very pure . But the males first generation are mostly the problem. Or they're split for cinnamon, little problem (some female hens must show cinnamon), then you now the male is split cinnamon, but that recessive pied that's the biggest problem.
Some wildcolor birds show, white toes,white nails ( see picture Peter) a single yellow feather some where. This year i noticed that the patch on the back of the head is an indication for pied, how bigger the patch how more pied they are .

Note :

That patch is shown by all wild wildcolor birds and is no shape for pied.
Even the yellowfronted, orangefronted as the redfronted birds in the wild have this patch . This patch is hidden unter the feathers on the back of the head and is white / yellowish down.


I hope Steptoe and Peter can agree with that ??
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:41 am    Post subject:

Quote:
That patch is shown by all wild wildcolor birds and is no shape for pied.
Even the yellowfronted, orangefronted as the redfronted birds in the wild have this patch . This patch is hidden unter the feathers on the back of the head and is white / yellowish down.

I hope Steptoe and Peter can agree with that ??


Yes...

Quote:
I have , i'm sure that females who are very pure . But the males first generation are mostly the problem.

If one goes back to diaries of early settlers and scientists of the 1800s
Time and again they mention the huge number of natural mutaions in the wild birds, and also make comments on how unusually common they appear.
At this time kakariki where going thru a big decline in numbers, and the capyure and exportting of mutations to collectors around the world was big business.
It would then be reasonably save to assume that the occurance of mutation genes in kakariki off would be far more concentrated in future generations.
And why mutations are next to nil, or very weak in our stock in NZ.
Hence why in NZ w occassionally get a pink toe or claw, and if lucky a white feather in the wing or tail.
Dose this logic work?

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Peter
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Linebreeding and selection

Peterlimburg wrote:
Peter wrote:
The recessive traits can be either vissible(homozygous) or not-vissible(split).



Yes , and thats the problem, the not- vissible traits. Both, male and female, can have those hidden recessive genes in their body.


What I meant are the traits other than colormutations. Size, shape of the head, character etc. Just like colormutations they can inherit in a dominant or recessive fashion.
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject:

Idea You mean the large size of lovebirds as sample.
Indeed some kakariki's shows also this phenomenon.
Until today i have four DEC goldchecks who show this , unfortunately they are all pied more or less.
I saw 2 times such big birds on a show, all first prices on it.
They are bigger in size, have longer and thicker feathers and are deeper yellow, the color of the crown was also deep red.
Now i remember our conversation on that subject.
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject:

The Next Generation,

Wizard is a new bird , purchased this year, i think he is split cinnamon pied.
His size is a least 5% bigger as the rest of all wildcolor birds i have here in my avairy. I peer him with a wildcolor female and just wait and see what's comes out.



Wizard, Let's see what you can conjure together Laughing
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject:

Think Think Sometimes I think that more subspecies were among the redcrown kakarikis . Think Think
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject:

Nice semental Peter!
Wish you luck with him. No ring, did you buy him from another breeder or in an auction?

You have a point about the subespecies. I think some time ago I asked here in the forum which was the most common red-crown subspecies (besides hybrids) and I think Peter (Wouters) answered novazelandiae, but maybe we have more subspecies' blood tricking us.

About longfeathered agapornis roseicollis, yes, that's a nice example of selection. I hope they don't end up like the English budgerigar, which in my opinion is not really a beautiful bird.

Now I would like to raise a question...
How close do you recommend getting when inbreeding kakarikis? Do you have any experiences on this, and how successful/unsuccessful have you been?

Steps, about mutations... here in Europe there aren't really that many mutations. Pied, cinnamon and fallow Sad Crying or Very sad
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-287.html

If we already had opaline and blue or par-blue in any of the species, there would be a lot more interest in the species and more breeders interested in breeding quality specimens. Since most species nowadays have many mutations readily available, it's rather "boring" to breed kakariki.

The same is happening with pyrrhura molinae. All of a sudden went from being the "ugly duckling" among pyrrhuras to become very popular now that opaline, blue and cinnamon mutations are available for a reasonable price in Europe. (plus it's a very saleable bird, since it's very popular as pet)

I think with kakariki something similar will happen, when more mutations appear.

rgrds / Pablo

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:35 pm    Post subject:

I dont think large size is subspecies
For some reason, everyso often we get a huge female...yest going back thru the line there is nothing to account for it, and bredding from small or large parents doesnt seem to make any difference
The yellow , orange are all smaller than the red
The antipodies is huge, a little larger than an eastern rosella...but no crown or anyhing like that.

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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
Nice semental Peter!
Wish you luck with him. No ring, did you buy him from another breeder or in an auction?



Now I would like to raise a question...
How close do you recommend getting when inbreeding kakarikis? Do you have any experiences on this, and how successful/unsuccessful have you been?



I buy him by a keeper , it was no breeder.
I saw a very bad picture on marketplace, if you have a good eye, you can regonize some things, it's was the size, the cap and the color I noticed and not far away from home.

I use only birds who have some specific features.
Only the best of the best where use to breed with.
They must almost be perfect, size , color, karakter, breeding results etc..
I have now two lines and a third line is coming.First i start with the couples, first generation on parend,then grandchildren on grandparend, or cousins, and then aunts or uncles. Then you can crossover and all begins by the beginning. If you want to now how the genes are, you can couple then brother to sister, only ones. In the mean time jou buy a good bird by a good breeder and start again with a new bloodline for fresh blood and crossover it again. You must try to keep the line in it.
I use a breeding program to notice the results and select the couples which may breed together. A good feeling is also usefull Wink

Note: use only the best of the best birds, otherwise you got shit.....

Unsuccesful until now pied birds, else is gowing out for sales.
Succesfull, size, cap, color, karakter, breeding results.

This methode is also used by dogs cats, cows, horses, lovebirds, even plants, etc......
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
Nice semental Peter!


If we already had opaline and blue or par-blue in any of the species, there would be a lot more interest in the species and more breeders interested in breeding quality specimens. Since most species nowadays have many mutations readily available, it's rather "boring" to breed kakariki.

.

My personal opinion:

I am glad it has not happened Pray . Otherwise you got a mess with all the mutations and crossingovers.
The final dead of the wildcolor.

Sorry, who breeds mutations Anxious Anxious Anxious Anxious
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