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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - calcium
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calcium
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b
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:51 pm    Post subject: calcium

l took my Kakas to the vet for a check up to see why all the chicks they have had are dieing or come out of the box with 1 leg not working probly.
The vet said they are lacking calcium.
The question l would like to know what is the best way to make sure they get enough calcium.
They have cutter fish (not sure how to spell it) which they will not eat fresh veggies & fruit daily & l have put calcium in the water which l am not a big fan of and it's costly after awhile.
l am lost what else to give them as nothing seem to work.
Any help or ideas would be GREAT.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:15 am    Post subject:

hi b,

feel free to post in old threads, in the case of calcium there has been some debate about it in previous threads and it's always interesting to "bump" them so maybe someone has feedback or update (like for instance someone using something new).

About calcium... supplements are expensive and some of them not very efficient.
Recalling advice from Peter Wouters he mentioned that besides from calcium, phosphorus is also needed, apparently calcium alone is not useful.
And usual advice from Steps is giving the birds chicken or beef bones, and raw broccoli and veggies stems which are also rich in calcium.

Be careful also with excess of calcium in diet (hypercalcemia) as it's harmful and among other things it causes temporary infertility in birds.

Cheers / Pablo

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:27 am    Post subject:

Weak legs is definately a Ca definciency symptom
And A CA/phosphours combo is needed to absorb the CA...
most minerals/vit need combinations to be absorbed, like iron needs vit C
Then throw in many minerals and viy are not stored.

Hence the term 'balanced' 'varied' 'consistant' used so often.

Like Pab refers to , many so called Ca suppliments are in the wrong form to be absorbed...and in my books supploments added to the water are just a rip off.
There are some expensive suripts and powders that can be added to to the veggies.
Personally we use stems of broccoli and cali chopped up , chopped up chicken caracss...the big source here is the cartilage, and pumice sand on the floors of the flights.
Pag also refers to too much Ca can cause hypercalcemia an infetility, personally something we have never experianced, which could be put down to not using supploments ..but rather 'natraul diets' varied and consistant.

Think about this
A few drops in the water, the female drinks this extremely diluted soln then divides that between say 6 or 8 chicks
Compare to just the cartilage on the breast bone and ends of the led bone of a chicken caracass (over 3days for 1 pair) and/or left over KFC bones
Then added that they chew off the smashed up bones and digging the marrow out....
Common sence say as Huge difference?

Ca deficiency is very common with 1st time breeders, with weak legs and egg binding in hens,

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject:

Hi b,

Weak leggs and broken leggs are the result of a lack of minerals in the embryo. These minerals are passed on by the female during egg developement. This means that the diet has to be optimal at least 2 months prior the first egg.
Like steps and Pablo mentioned there has be Phosphorus available with the Calcium. The Calcium/Phosphorus ratio has to be 2:1. Meat has high amounts of Phosphorus. About 23:1. I suggest to sprinkle the Calcium over some meat/insects to maintain a good calcium/Phosphorus ratio.
Another option is commercial eggfood. This contains sufficient amounts of calcium and phosphorus. Chicken bones and dicalcium phosphate are also an excellent source.
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b
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 12:25 am    Post subject:

Thanks for all the advice.
l have tried eggfood for a few weeks but they would not eat it and the same with the chicken bones would not go near the bones.
l have also put in minerals/vit blocks which he will eat & sometimes she will eat it but not very much.
When l got her from a backyard breeder he only feed her sunflower seed and nothing else but since l have had her she has been getting her veggies took awhile for her to eat them but now loves them.
They do get stems of broccoli and cali chopped up but mainly love the carrots.
Thanks to Steps list of veggies that is what l used and it was trial and error with what they eat but l have had no luck with chick bones or any meat.
Would shell grit be any good?
The only advice the vet could come up with was to give her needles to make sure she was getting enough calcium but l don't like that idea coz my birds don't like being handle at all they come to you when they want to.
But my 1st breeding pair l havent had any problems they are all good but my 2nd breeding pair that the question they all get the same food.
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:21 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The only advice the vet could come up with


I hope not to sound harsh but your vet is not a good vet and I'd go as far as saying he's trying to sell you the needles so you spend more money. I think it's a commercial decision not a decision based on bird's well-being.

Best advice an honest vet would give would be stop breeding until the birds accept a varied/balanced diet (this seems to be already done) and let the hen rest and build up in calcium. Then resume breeding and see if chicks grow normally.

I think before injecting it would be even wiser to not use the hen for breeding and just keep her as pet, or give it away to a responsible person that wants a pet bird. Kakariki, even when adult are very adaptable and confident on the keeper.

Apart from the stress of the hen due to handling and injections, I think it's a big mistake to breed from defective birds, it's ensuring defective genes pass on to the offspring.

Cheers / Pablo

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:37 am    Post subject:

Quote:
I hope not to sound harsh


Ca/mineral/vit injections is when a bird is in dire straits.
Too many vets walk around with dollar signs in their eyes...

Pab is spot on on everything above, except worring about being hash

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:51 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Too many vets walk around with dollar signs in their eyes...


do you mean like this?



signlol :fun: lmao <v>

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b
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject:

There is NO way im going to make her a pin cushion and l don't really like vets anyway that is why l have asked the question from other kaka owner for any ideas.
lm going to try chicken bones again and see how l go.
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SDavies
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:23 am    Post subject:

mine get there cuttle bone, oyster shell grit and give a drop of calviet orally and off course the sunshine needed to absorb it all
though i don't breed them, i want them strong Wink
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Joneh
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject:

Hello, my 'pip' has a cuttle bone and a calcium block but doesn't bite either? Any ideas how to encourage, we do give him brocoli along with other veg.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:22 am    Post subject:

Lowering seed supply and weaning onto a consistant and vairied veg /fruit/protein diet over serval weeks
Eventually they get to a 4 to 5 times 'natrual' deit over seed by weight.

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rayholt48
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:57 am    Post subject:

what i do with the egg mix is make it with warm water and the scrape about half teaspoon of cuttle fish into it don't make it to wet it should swell but not be sticky

ray
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b
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject:

My Kakas will not eat the egg mix just poo in it every time.
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tailofdog
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:28 am    Post subject:

Joneh wrote:
Hello, my 'pip' has a cuttle bone and a calcium block but doesn't bite either? Any ideas how to encourage, we do give him brocoli along with other veg.

We use a red mineral block suspended in clay with molasses.
They are available in Australia. Also Vetafarm sells something similar. All my Kak's eat this straight away even though they have never seen it before.
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