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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Egg Binding, How to.
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Egg Binding, How to.

 
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:54 pm    Post subject: Egg Binding, How to.

We have just had our main female get egg bound...BIG TIME....
We 1st noticed something was up, when she fell from the perch on her nesting box to the ground, and stayed there all fluffed and hunched up.
Upon investigation we could feel the egg inside and it had hardened

DON'T force the egg!!!, break it and the bird dies, painfully.

I have never broken a egg inside, but have decided if I ever do, I will put the bird down, immediatly...I will not have a bird suffer, broken egg shell inside, muscles trying to contract, ripping her up, imagine it, knowing it will be fatal anyway. Thats cruel.

When a egg is being laid it is still soft and hardens shortly after laying.
STEP 1 3:30pm
We the gave her a dose of calcium orally, and rubbed cooking oil around the anus, held her over a mild heat steaming water.
This usually will pass the egg.
In this case no.
In the future well will carefully introduce olive oil into the anus by dropper as described below, rather than just aplly to the outside.

STEP 2 4:30pm
We contacted a very experienced Kike/parrot breeder friend, and 'background' members here...we don't trust the local vets with birds...Into the car and around to their home, kike wraped in a teatowel and kept warm from our body heat, under my wife's top.
Freinds, Gave another dose if calcium, another dose of olive oil, orally.
Then with an eye dropper, pumped about 1 to 1.5 ml of olive (or cooking oil) into the anus. Then placed her in a heated box around 25 C.
She is drinking lots of water.

STEP 3:
18 hrs later, (from 1st discovery)still no egg, drinking lots of water. It is now time to accept that the chances are that we will 'loose' the bird. It is a large egg, and fully hardened.
During this period, 4 or 5 times more calcium given orally, and oil added by dropper into the anus, couple drops given orally also

25 hrs later (from 1st discovery) Still no egg.

STEP 4:
Now we do accept we will 'loose' her....
We are now into either 'make or break' mentality. ie we force the egg to get it out, and a SLIM chance she will survive, or we break the egg and have to put her down.
The Kike was held firmly on her back in the hand on a firm surface like a table cnr. by one person.
More olive oil added into the anus by dropper
2nd person took a paper tissue, stretched it out and loosely twisted into a sort of rope cnr to cnr. placed the tissue behind the egg and pulled from the ends, downwards and around the egg (hence using the cnr of a table) and backwards towards the anus....VERY firmly yet carefully and slow. NOT letting up until the egg either breaks or comes out.
The tissue spreads the load of the force over a larger area of the egg evenly..well thats the theory....

The egg was forced out, whole, a bit of bleeding,( to be expected,) lots of poos.

STEP 5:
Clean up. Warm water used to clean down, Iodine sol'n applied over the anus area to help prevent infection. Calcium sol'n given orally again.
Placed back into 'hot box' about 25 C.. food..seed, green veggies, water supplied....still drinking lots of water and eating.
Heat box is about 300L x 250W x 150H with access from the top, solid sides. Small to resrtict movement, aid healing.

18 hrs after egg removal, (and time of posting this) eyes are bright, looking well, can hear Dad, and calling back. eating well.
It will be a week before we know all is OK.
She will be placed back into an flight in couple days, with no males for about 2 to 3 weeks, and no nesting box for 6 months.
Dad is still busy feeding chicks from the last batch and will till the iris starts to devalope in the chicks. About 2 weeks.

As I have stated in other posts we are very lucky and grateful to have a mentor, of such long experience, not only in NZ but The Netherlands.
This was the most extreme case of egg binding they had ever seen, and also very surprised at the survival of the Kike to this point.
At STEP 4 they had never been to that extreme before, nor do we all believe it is a std practise,(?) as normally a bird would have been dead by then.
Keep in mind She was in top health, good food, yet was on her 7th or 8th consecutive batch of eggs since last Oct. and the last batch just emerged from the other nest a few days ago.

Her eggs (7) have been marked with a dot, some placed under a Red Kike that has just started having her 1st chicks hatch, and under a Yellow that has been sitting for couple weeks on eggs Also 1st batch

This is a 'info' thread so if any other experianced members wish to add methods, ideas etc please do so to build on the subject.

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:47 am    Post subject:

She perked up was feeding, looking quite well, moving around.
Even so we where not anywhere 100% convident...it was the extreme end of the scale, even at 1/2 that, survival would still be very uncertain.
She she died 2 days later.

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gypsie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject:

sorry to hear about your hen kike .
every one done their best in difficult circamstances !
its very hard to know what to do ? does the male pine for his mate or is he still very busy feeding their babys?
Crying or Very sad it was a good idea to post about kikes getting egg bound it will make us more aware with our own. gypsie
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject:

Things like this have to be accepted, thanks for your thoughts.
Yes Dad is busy feeding the chicks, we leave them with parents untill the iris starts to appear a couple weeks out of the nest.
We will take the opportunity to introduce new blood lines for the new breeding season.

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thenan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Egg Binding

I am so sorry to hear about you girl. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
I found one of my King Quail in the same predicament on Tuesday, the egg was half out but hadn't hardened properly, with the result that it broke whilst getting it out. It seemed to just break at the point I drained the yolk out & pulled the shell out piece by piece then gradually massaged the rest out-- never thought of the oil idea. She is OK so far
Your treatment sounded excellent it is a shame it didn't work for her & here's hoping you never have to try it again
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nickieemma
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Egg Binding

We lost Kari yesterday due to egg binding. She has been laying eggs on and off since February this year, she has been in and out of the vets since then. She was on hormone treatment for a few month, calcium supplements and still nothing. However last week she became really poorly again so took her back the vets who examined her and told us to bring her back on Wednesday so they could xray her and extract the egg. When they took the xray they said there was no egg but that morning there had been a lot of blood on the bottom of her cage, she was given some antibiotics and anti inflammatories and was told to bring her back today. She really seemed to perk back up over the weekend, coming out of her cage sitting on our shoulders but by yesterday she became worse, unable to climb up her cage, staggering on the floor. i put her in a hospital cage (cat carrier) for some peace and quiet and 1hr later i went to check on her and she had sadly passed away. I am absolutely devestated, the house feels so empty without her.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject:

Quote:
However last week she became really poorly again so took her back the vets who examined her and told us to bring her back on Wednesday so they could xray her and extract the egg. When they took the xray they said there was no egg but that morning there had been a lot of blood on the bottom of her cage

A vet said/ did that Shocked
An egg in its early stages is basically soft just a membrane, and may not be picked up in an xray.. picking up in an xray, Im not sure about
It CAN be felt very easy when one knows what to feel for.
If egg binding is suspected it is dealt with there and then immeduiately...no if or buts..there and then no delays...period.
The above method is a compliation of talking with an avain vet after the event, and servral highly respected and exprianced bird breeders.
These or very similar proceedures SHOULD have taken place if egg binding or suspect binding by the vet...If not the vet should go back and redue his degree...or take up needle piont instead...
yeah you can tell them i said that too.
As time goes on and we are talking hrs, the egg shell starts to harden inside (when a freshly laid a egg is still quite soft and pilable, like a bit of clay sort of)
Once hardened inside any chances of survival are very slim indeed.
Risk of breaking inside, and or major rupture of organs is huge.
Eventually the bird, if not broken inside, becomes very latgic, lot of pain, dies...often with hemoraging, which I think is the cause of death.
If one takes the dead bird, one can practice (I know this sounds insentive, Im sry dont know how to put anty other way) on extracting the egg with pressure.. one cant get all the way behind but can get to the back slope of the egg, manuver forward and pop it out...not neccassy in one peice thu.

Im very sry to have to read your post
But Im a bloody sight more angry ... I have a nil torreance to having pets, children, people in our care and have them suffer like that.

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dorotee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: egg problem :(

Hi,
I know it`s a bit old topic, but I`m desperately looking for advice.
My female (2,5 years old) has CONSTANTLY problems with laying an egg.
It would take a lot of time to explain whole case on this subject, but let me just say she was operated under the anesthesia the in the past because the egg was stuck and our vet couldn`t take it out other way. Such problems occurred several times. I would easily say that 1 egg in 5 won`t go out normally.
Recently I`ve moved to a different country and didn`t find any good avian vet yet, not to mention very high prices - I simply can`t afford going to vet all the time.
So I have few questions :
- is there any GOOD way to stop her laying eggs? I have separated her from the male, but he is not taking that easily and how long can I keep her away in much smaller cage? Sad
- How can I tell for sure if she does not have a hard egg inside? How long would she live if the had one?
- From time to time when she is jumping from high she makes a sound like she was in sudden but not strong pain. I used to think it was an egg inside, but sometimes could last for weeks!

I give her calcium in water when troubles start (maybe too much??).

Sorry for such a long and messy post, but I really need to do something before it`s too late.

Crying or Very sad
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject:

As meantioned a bove, and with most health issues, it is all about prevention....good consistant, balanced diet.....
That means balanced all the time, not a few 'treats' every now and then.
One can dump all the calcuim one likesa at abird, but it will not absorb that calcuim into the body unless the diet also contains phosporus....AND it is the correct compound of calcuim.
As meantioned before, the common form is calacuim carbinate....but even that comes in many forms, most useless...and many fatal if feed to an animal
Cement powder, concret, plaster of pasis set and unset, egg shell raw and cooked, blackboard chalk, gypsum, garden lime, shellfish shells, pumice stone, meat bones, cooked , uncooked, gristle and cartage....list is huge.
Think about this, birds in the wild do not need us to give them aditives, therefore all we need to do is supply minerals vitimins, proteins etc as they would find in the wild....
Some of the best forms of phosporus and calcuim are from brocolli and cali stems..the parts we throw away.
And Cuttle fish, and grstle and cartiage from our left over chicken/ meats.
These alone will supply all the needs of a bird for calcuim....supplied on a daily basis..laying or not.
Rem its about balanced diet... the phosphorus requires other minerals/vitmins/protiens to be able to be absorbed....ie iron needs vit C, and sorces of iron, espec for kakariki ais protein foods like meat

Quote:
is there any GOOD way to stop her laying eggs?

No.
This is why we let our breeding pairs breed non stop now, yrs on end....3 pair have now been breeding non stop all yr round for 4 yrs...no egg binding, no additives, just constant balanced diet 2x every day.

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dorotee
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject:

Thank you for quick answer :)
Let me just write you what they eat daily: seeds sprout, home baked rye bread, millet, broccoli (but not every day), apples, cucumber, rucola, they have sand, mineral rock and a brick of calcium.
When season is on we give them fresh branches, grassland, rowanberry, cranberry, hawthorn etc. They don`t like meat or worms, or any of the exotic fruits. Do you think it can be diet problem?
We have 2 kakarikis from 5 years and the others from 2,5 - parents and children. We didn`t have such problems with older couple.
Maybe when she squeals while jumping, she has got not enough calcium and her bone joints simply hurts? When problem occurs I give them extra calcium in syrup (like for children).
How much would you pour to 200 ml of water if there are 115 calcium ions in 5 ml?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject:

you could also be overdosing calcuim....kidney problems, sore bones and joints and digestion issues...which may relate to the fussy food issue.

Quote:
mineral rock and a brick of calcium.

Most of these calcuim blocks I have seen reciepys for and even commercial ones on shop shelves have the wrong form of calcuim...be good if the bird had a stomach ulser... Shocked

Cuttle fish, pumice sand on the floors and fresh veggies are the only source our birds get.
Protien is a huge part of of a kakatiki diet....chop up a left over chicken carcass with a good cleiver, bones and all....they get to the iron in the marrow, the fats in the remaining meat and the cartilage in the joints and breast bone.

Fruit, apples ands kiwi fruits are our main ones, and then anything else that happens to be in season in the gardens...at the moment grapes, fusha berries, tomatos, apples coming on and plums finishing

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