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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - DoC Orange Kakariki Program
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DoC Orange Kakariki Program

 
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:41 pm    Post subject: DoC Orange Kakariki Program

It is good to see The DoC recovery program looking to improve, to date its has been a bit of a failure with loosing chicks in previous seasons.

Several issues arise here.
Why send all off spring to Islands? Where they cant be seen.
Originally they existed over very wide areas of NZ including current areas that have wild red/yellow kakariki
It has been recommended by highly experienced long term private breeders that any release should be of at least 20 breeding pairs to be more successful. This has been made to the Orange kakariki breeding facilities and the minister. The piont was unoffically taken on board a while back...so now changed ?
Also Recommended is moving a few breeding pairs to experienced breeders in the north where better climate conditions exist. These expenses of aviaries would happily be carried by private breeders...DoC is alway bitching for more money and we can do it much cheaper.
How much does DoC Know about locating nesting boxes in the wild? Its reported that many of these are not used by released Kakariki. And design to produce healthier and more mature birds.

If a private breeder applies to DoC to breed Antipodes/orange species, in the application it stated that any eggs/chicks have to be destroyed.
They are also not allowed to keep any of their current breeding stock of reds and yellows.

With only 2 breeding facilities the dangers of infection etc of disease is far greater. Then there is other risks like bad weather snaps, thunder storms, fire.

The Minister issued a directive to DoC in Sept 2003 for more cooperation with private breeders with a 12 month time frame. In that time there where numerous attempts by breeders to setup, recommendations etc..what did DoC do...nothing...again.
DoC in their wisdom publish numerous comments that their is a wealth of information with private breeders, yet do not recognise them in any OFFICIAL way.
Yet take private breeders out of the equation and the red and the yellow would very quickly up up graded as far as endangered species goes.

Kakariki where once as common as sparrows/thrush/blackbirds.
Currently private breeders destroy 100s of healthy kakariki every yr. Many release illegally at great risk to introduction to the environment of unwanted organisms Why? because of head in the sand and autocratic attitudes from DoC hierarchy.
Why at very little expense cant an approved breeder, release kakariki into local urban forrest...a local school could run a research project on numbers survival rates etc...The school could make nesting boxes (there is current president on the latter) Why spend 1000s of dollars on some PhD research student to wander thru and count a few birds and who has absolutely no personal experience in keeping/ breeding/ observing Kakariki This would be a great education program for young people...edcation is one of the major objectives of DoC.

Why cant DoC give permissions to farmers and other rural ppl to set up breeding programs with open aviaries and flights.

If DoC is under staffed, or short on financial resources, why don't they approach private breeders to setup a network, administer stds, swapping of genetic lines on and organised manner, under DoC supervision?
Isn't that what private breeders are already doing? un organised.
How can we be organised , we cant officially get lists of permit holders.
DoC administers inspections of aviaries. It has been know that the inspector thought a Kakariki was a lizard!!! I built a new aviary with 3 flights early last yr. Any new aviary needs an inspection...hasnt been inspected, nor has another one built since then. Don't blame the grass roots DoC guys, they are good guys and just as frustrated. They have been given higher priory jobs.

Does DoC really have their head in the sand...
look at the report of kakariki in Porrua reserve, DoC reckons they came from Kapiti Island...so where are the flocks in between? is a long way...load of rubbish, lets be honest, they are an illegal release. This is not the only instance. Shakespeare Bay is another instance.
Then DoC says no good releasing because of rats, hey Shakespeare Bay is not vermin free, yet they are surviving.
From a small amount of research, I find that there has been 10s of 1000s of dollars granted to Conservation Trusts for breeding Kakariki over the last 5 yrs....nothing that I can find was done.
There are Conservation Trusts all over the country wishing to introduce Kakariki...they cant get the birds. Why? DoC have a policy of only wild caught birds can be used. Well that takes out the wild DoC adminstered population at Tiri Tiri Matangi...they have a disease. So we keep ringing the necks of 100s possibly 1000s of good Kakariki every yr.

So the argument has been put forward , "Why breed them to kill"
Well as mentioned before many of us would like our grandchildren to be aware and know of Kakariki in the wild and towns. A NZ native bird that should be as common as a sparrow yet unknown to 99.99% of the NZ population.(and a great number of DoC staff) Many of the older breeders have taken the attitude of "stuff DoC" and now breed exotic birds. Expolate this out, and what is the result?
The more common red and yellow will be in not much better condition than the Orange is now.
And why is the orange in the situation now, cause DoC killed off private breeding stock in the late 90s, inspite of the advice of experienced breeders that they where a separate species and because of what DoC considered over crowding. They haven't a clue what over crowding or conditions Kakariki require.
Apply for a permit and they tell the applicant to contact a private breeder.

It Just Doesn't make any Sense Does it?

What do NZ private breeders got to do? Get hold of 20/20 or Campbell live and have then film endangered healthy Kakariki get their necks rung?
I can just see CNN/BBC picking up on that to.

DoC has been known to make unfair requirements very expensive to individual breeders in the past, and force them out of the sciene if they make waves...Oh well if they see that as a soln to a problem then it certainly fits in with what they what they have done todate.

It is also my understanding Kakariki are not the onlt species DoC is miss handling.

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Allen
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject:

I scratch my head and wonder?

Too much education and too little sense = DOC?
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peanut
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:08 am    Post subject:

As an ex-pat kiwi living in oz and seeing the freedom allowed here with native species i totally agree with your comments. i feel a liberal approach to breeding is an excellent idea, true, it has some shortcomings but i feel the numbers that would be bred would offset any of these. I have recently bought a pair of kakarikis, they are real characters, it is such a good feeling having these two little reminders of home in my backyard.
P.S. as a former wanderer of the remote mid north island forests i have had the pleasure of hearing kakarikis in the bush, as well as having been dive bombed by a kaka, heard the haunting call of the kokako and listened to kiwis call to each other at night.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:15 am    Post subject:

w3c to our community.
Quote:
seeing the freedom allowed here with native species i totally agree with your comments. i feel a liberal approach to breeding is an excellent idea, true, it has some shortcomings but i feel the numbers that would be bred would offset any of these.

We do have a "liberal approach" to breeding Kakariki in NZ, it just that we then have to kill them.
How would u feel if a program like 20/20 show around the world, NZ breeders killing of 10s or even 100s of NZ native birds that at endangered or even threatened for no good reason, other than being Government policy?
I don't want when some one asks me "where are u from?" "NZ" "oh thats that 'green' country that kills off their endangered native species"

With all due respect, is THAT what it is going to take for ppl to start to jump up and down? Start writing letters to Ministers, MPs, 'greenies', world conservation organisations, magazines, talking to m8s at work.

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C0nor
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:00 pm    Post subject:

I think DOC just enjoy their ego trip and loove to be difficult.
Kakariki are no different from other birds, they can still fly and when they see a cat they flee, rosellas survive, nay, thrive in the old kakariki habitat and they never saw a stoat either.
Doc in most cases is a secret society of the blind leading the blind. wall
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Turtlehead
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject:

DoC announced the other day on One News that they released a mere fifteen Orange-fronted Kakarikis that took them two years to raise from eggs taken from the wild duno . They probably could have raised 100 from the costs of transporting a measly fifteen to the middle of no where duno .
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:16 am    Post subject:

15....thats about the number an inexperienced breeder would get off 1 pair in a season, if they took the advise of an experienced breeders and still screwed up. Shocked
15 released....They where advised by some very knowledgeable ppl absolute min # should be 20, preferably much higher...and they agreed a couple yrs ago.
When they 1st got the eggs they waited for something like 4 hrs for the foster mother to get off her eggs "in case they disturbed her" ...A kakariki parent, on eggs or chicks, WILL not give up chicks or eggs even if u remove them for days the put them back Shocked
They lost a lot because of "shock" chasing young birds around in a large aviary Shocked and the other story was they didn't precheck the aviaries after the contractors and they where lead or zinc poisoned. Shocked
An application from a private breeder made to gain a pair ...the condition was any eggs or chicks produced had to be destroyed Shocked

Was this release a 'soft' release or where they just released?
Where they breed and raised in a community flock or pairs in an aviary?

Both of these could be critical to the eventual success of a flock.

The stupidity is not in what they have done...but in
1/Not following experienced expert advice
2/Not asking in the right places for advice

http://www.stupidity.com/us/ustc.htm
(this is a serious site)

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Turtlehead
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject:

I am not too sure. But you have given us evidence in other threads that DoC aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Why can't they let breeders do their breeding and let DoC to the pest eradication- they seem to be good at that Laughing ? I am sure duck breeders could breed more whio than they can. As for the kakapo are they sure they can't be bred in captivity. Sure they may have had success in the past like the Black Robin. We have discussed this before. Maybe DoC is waning Sad .
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject:

I do not know why...the Minister issued a directive in this direction in Aug 2003, with 12 months to implement...didnt happen...again.
Reason I do not know..
from the Minister down DoC is a closed door.
News items are 'selected' and edited by spin doctors
Independent reporters 'submit' articles before release for 'approval' otherwise the reporter doesn't get any more invites to Field trips.
Researchers who make waves stop getting permission into research areas and or funding.
SOMETHING appears VERY WRONG.

As u comment these issues are not just kakariki but other species also.

I can only assume here...there seems to be a common denominator in some of these issues.
If there is no funding budget for a species there is no conservation/research permitted for that species.

Quote:
But you have given us evidence

No I have not or at lease only snippets. That is not to say I don't have such evidence...I do...Out of respect of many ppl within DoC, fringes of DoC, and private sources...I am not prepared to place these ppl, there jobs, research programs at risk.
My self, I have mentioned the risks in letters to the minister etc. I keep our aviaries and birds in tip top condition, I kill our over stock, rather than illegally release, unlike many private breeders may do. I know from the experience of others in the past who have taken on these issues in the past, ridiculous and expensive 'requirements' to aviaries are made, permits withdrawn.
If this were to happen, I can assure u, unlike those who have battled for yrs and far harder than myself in the past, I am stubborn and pig headed enough to take the campaign to a far higher level.
Unlike those before us, we CAN afford to step up the level of protest and have far less to loose.
My objective is not to breed, make a name, or a need for credit, but simply to have Kakariki in the wild at the local park, bush reserves, see NZ more as it should be, for the pleasure of my grandchildren (who due to my age there is a good chance I may not be around to see)

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Turtlehead
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:41 am    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
Quote:
But you have given us evidence

No I have not or at lease only snippets. That is not to say I don't have such evidence...I do...Out of respect of many ppl within DoC, fringes of DoC, and private sources...I am not prepared to place these ppl, there jobs, research programs at risk.


Fare enough.

Would the New Zealand Parrot Society have enough political clout to help something happen?

Just as long as breeders keep a strong genetic line DoC shouldn't be worried.

Surely they would breed in any avairy one provides and doesn't need to point in any particular direction within reason.

Do they just like red tape or something?
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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject:

With all due respect to the people writing in this forum, some of the comments made here are absolute unsupported garbage.

There are a lot of things you don't know, not because DOC (or anyone else) is hiding them from you but simply because you haven't researched them for yourselves. Has anyone read even 2 or 3 of the scientific papers listed in the bibliography downloadable on this site.

DOC, etc may be willing to engage in intelligent discussion with you if you would behave intelligently (i.e. do your homework). Otherwise its the same as all of you trying to diagnose someones health problem without any of you being doctors.

All you are doing here is scaring away people who might have a different opinion, and preventing anything proactive happening, instead just being reactive. DOC has many volunteer opportunities (e.g. kakariki nest minders). I would suggest anyone who is really passionate about kakariki conservation contact them and offer to do a 2 week stint. You might learn a lot.
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Cchan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:30 pm    Post subject:

Apocrypha wrote:
I would suggest anyone who is really passionate about kakariki conservation contact them and offer to do a 2 week stint. You might learn a lot.


Sound like a good thing to do.

A lot of what DoC does is preventative measures, just like the MAF people who search through your bags at the airport. The main problem with DoC is the lack of central coordination. You need to talk to the right person to get what you want, talking to anybody else is basically useless. Not talking
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:18 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The main problem with DoC is the lack of central coordination. You need to talk to the right person to get what you want, talking to anybody else is basically useless.


That sums things up over the last 10 yrs plus very well...
Try and find the 'right person" Sure many will express personal opinions, and they do privately, and they are along the lines expressed on this site.
Even some of those above who portend to know the right ppl can not get these answers.
In essence there is and has been a total block of any information, involvement, cooperation with private breeders FROM DoC
So Somethings may not be fully accurate, but if DoC is not prepared to work with or even answer questions Officially AT ALL. and acts in a manner as a law unto its self at higher levels...this is the result. 'Fishing' for information and what is given is highly whitewashed and full of holes that inaccuracies occur.

Quote:
DOC, etc may be willing to engage in intelligent discussion with you if you would behave intelligently (i.e. do your homework). Otherwise its the same as all of you trying to diagnose someones health problem without any of you being doctors.


DoC are NOT prepared to discuss ANYTHING, unless it is to contact a private breeder "OFF THE RECORD" because they don't know how to do something.
These contacts are at a lower Field level. Information and how to do...has ALWAYS, for many yrs, been given in the interest of kakariki...inspite of the official bureaucratic stance.
DoC and Trusts are very aware at all levels Minister to lowest levels, that there are kakariki available for release...DoC have approved Trusts to release Kakariki....Yet have not managed to put the 2 together.

So we end up with a situation, where one day a breeder comes along, prefers to operated in the open, is not prepared to break the law and illegally release, act in a fully responsible manner, donate healthy birds to Consecration trusts....and like breeders before is prevented doings so with no logical reason. But says so publically because decades of the 'soft' approach as suggested above has achieved....NOTHING
And I ask, those who now criticise the current approach...WHAT have you achieved? I see nothing has changed. In fact good logical papers submitted by these ppl and others are just rejected outright....
Many in the past have intensely battled and banged their heads against a brick wall for decades, and got no where, retired or gave up or died. Now someone bangs their head against the wall and realises something deeper is essentially wrong...so instead of retiring or dieing, makes use of tools available to them a light a fuse. Simply lays what is the reality in the open, honestly. If that reality doesn't suit DoC , then there must be something essentially wrong.

Don't blame the person who complains about stepping into dog cr**p on the foot path and complains...the error lays with the dog owner.

P.S
Apocrypha
Quote:
DOC has many volunteer opportunities (e.g. kakariki nest minders). I would suggest anyone who is really passionate about kakariki conservation contact them and offer to do a 2 week stint. You might learn a lot.

That is strange comment to make when knowing full well there are those who due to age, disablity or sickness, dont meet DoC physical requirements, and/or have jobs that require 24/7 on call support. It therefore follows that these ppl cannot be allowed to be "really passionate about kakariki" involved or proactive in Conservation.

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Cchan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:55 pm    Post subject:

The best way to find "the right person" at DoC is to look at the publications sections in their website, and see who publishes the recent reports on the species you are interested in. Then call them. E-mail seems quite fruitless.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:39 am    Post subject:

The best way doesn't work...after getting passed around , then getting back to the original grass roots guys...who once again I must emphasis I can not critical of, and have the greatest respect for. One ends up in a dead end at a higher level. This is not a phenomenon not exclusive to us, but to many breeders wishing to Donate birds over many yrs long before 'our time'
From DOC consultation policy (1999)
http://www.doc.govt.nz/About-DOC/Policies-Plans-and-Reports/pdf/consultation-policy.pdf
Quote:
Why we consult The department consults to :
get more information to help make better decisions for conservation;
meet our legal obligations under legislation, including Section 4
requirements of the Conservation Act.
Quote:
When making discretionary decisions or policy, the department reserves the
right to decide whether or not to consult.

Dead End.
Yet we know Trusts are approved to release Kakariki, we know Kakariki are available.
We as private breeders nationally and intenationally have yrs of experience in Kakariki on going observation and behaviour diet etc....This is often listened to 'off the record" then totally ignored creating mistakes. This is across many species.
Quote:
The best way to find "the right person" at DoC is to look at the publications sections in their website, and see who publishes the recent reports on the species you are interested in. Then call them. E-mail seems quite fruitless
.
Yes the system is in place, I think...but it doesn't work as it is intended to, even from Ministerial direction to DoC.
I can issue you that over many yrs, not just us but other breeders of many species in NZ, hit the same brick walls, with the same illogical out comes.
Under these circumstances eventually something has to give. It is very regretable that after yrs of fustration that a subject of this nature is discussed or even exists simply because all other avenues have been exausted many times over, both within DoC and externally.
It IS NOT a PATH of CHOICE and not taken lightly.

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