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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Hybrids/Mutations in the wild?
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Hybrids/Mutations in the wild?

 
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Steptoe
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Hybrids/Mutations in the wild?

This is a question I have pondered over for a while.
We have fressias, daffodil , pond with gold fish and a few other bits and pieces in our gardens.
If one starts out with cross breed/mutant strains that all look pretty, after a few years, the strains one orginally return to the wild variety.
EG, the goldfish, start out as reds, whites etc, they have the odd brown as a throw back, The brown mates with a coloured fish, and the 'wild'brown gene is very dominate in the off spring. Eventually as the older red/whites die off the pond is eventually returned to a wild brown with the odd mutant being thrown up.
The same goes for the fressias, daffodills and other plants.
Eventually the instance of hybrids/mutants becomes more rare.

Also considering colouring of birds/animal is often a defensive mechanism by camoflage, and bright colours that dont fit the wild envitoment would make these a fine target, also reducing the instance of hybrids/mutants

Is this the same for birds/parrots?
Is this 'strong gene a mechanism by which nature protects its self?

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Apocrypha
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Joined: Oct 10, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:31 pm    Post subject:

Yep,

lets say colour green gene = A and yellow = a

AA = normal green kakariki and green is dominant
Aa = still green as green is dominant over yellow
aa = yellow as no green being dominant.

Thats a gross simplification, but yeah. So if you start with 5 aas and 1 Aa then the A gene keeps spreading and becoming dominant over the others until all back to equilibrium (the a will persist by hiding in Aa's)

Yep, colour mutations get knocked off by not only predators but neglected by own species = no genes passed on.

Sometimes though, being heterozygote (i.e. Aa) is good as it gives the best of both worlds. e.g. sickle cell anaemia (do a search on-line for sickle cell + heteroygote for explan.)
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Peter
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Joined: Oct 15, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:35 am    Post subject:

Apocrypha wrote:


lets say colour green gene = A and yellow = a

AA = normal green kakariki and green is dominant
Aa = still green as green is dominant over yellow
aa = yellow as no green being dominant.



Yellow still have a chance to survive. If we cross breed the yellow (aa)with a wild green (AA) the offspring are all (Aa).
An in-breeding of that (brother-sister) gives.
Aa x Aa = 25% AA, 50% Aa, 25% aa

It is a chance but every time (aa) mate with (AA) the previous scenario must be repeated to save the yellow. No need to say this is one chance in a million it goes like that in the wild.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:44 am    Post subject:

Reasoning behind my question:
DoC will not let us supply or release what 'appears' to be pure bred strains.
In case of cross breeding someware in the past geneolgy generations ago.
To my way of thinking, over thousands of yrs, even the full wild version there is a chance wild breeding could have occured someware anyway.(another post re yellows and reds living in the same enviroment).

If yellows and reds where released in the same area, in small numbers, I could see that cross breeding in the wild could be a problem, as there are in effect NO kikes in the wild, a release of one (eg red) in an area, in suffient numbers in one hit, nature its self would look after the species purity anyway.
There is legit concern of also releasing desease with the birds, and fair comment to, the above is assuming the birds are clean.

As one will notice, we have 2 reds, in excess...At value of $80NZ they are not realy worth selling, this seasons chicks are hatching, we can only keep 1 pair /flight (permit conditions). We can only sell, give away to a permit holder.
So that leaves us to ring their necks.........

Is there something Im missing in the logic of the 1st 2 paragraghs?

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Allen
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Joined: Oct 14, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:53 am    Post subject:

There is nothing genetically wrong with a mutation being released into the wild. There are a number of instances where different colour mutations occur amongst wild bird populations eg. yellow ringnecks, yellow budgies etc. The colour mutations will as be bred out similiar to blue eyes in people. Brown eyed person has a baby with blue eyed person and all their babies will have brown eyes. Brown is dominant but some of the babies will be split for blue. I have brown eyes but my father had blue eyes so I carry the gene and my wife has blue eyes so my daughter has blue eyes and my son has brown eyes but he may also be carrying (split) the blue gene.

I am sure that NZ authorities are concerned about hybrids between yellow fronted and red fronted because you can never get rid of the hybrid genes. Do the maths, you can after many generations get to 99.9% pure by starting with a hybrid and breeding the offspring with pure birds. The problem however is if you release hybrids into the wild they and their offspring will forever change and contaminate the pure gene pool.

Perhaps the answer lies in DNA tests of birds prior to release to make sure they are pure. I am not sure if this is possible or cost effective.

The other problem of course is has a study been done to determine how viable captive bred released birds are in the wild. Are they able to survive, thrive and breed or will the simply end up dead?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:51 am    Post subject:

If a kike escapes, DoC must be notified...there are several escapes on record, and show that they adapt very well.
We have a prob with rosellas, (that from what I understand, could cross breed) lorries cockatoos all in the wild, released from captive stock and adapt rather well...
England, US all record ecaped parrots , even flocks, that are from capitive stock.
DoC with the rare orange and other species have been succesful/ or intend to be...there is no reason that the kike will not adapt back to its native enviroment very well.
Yes dna scanning...I dont know if the info is avaliable on pure species...or even if from the logic I suggest above re that there must have been some wild cross breeding in the wild over the last few 100s of yrs, would give 100% results.
I am sure our stock is pure or as pure canbe without dna scan, and there are many breeders who also in the same situation.
Cost:
A dna scan for human, acceptable to the justice courts is around $700NZ one at over 98% (think) above 1/2. If DoC financed this.
With 'approved' volunteer small breeders, with a wide genic pool across the country, each yr there would be enough stock to release at several locations that would survive ferrel preditors.
Appoint a few volunteer 'inspectors' of experiance to monitor breeders, responsible to DoC
This would resault in one of the greatest (and with the hightest probabity of success) at the least capital out lay.
As far as I know a release excerise like this has never been undertaken other than on 'clean' off shore Islands, and monitored.
Personally I would rather loose /risk our birds to a failed exercise like this than ring their necks.

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