Welcome to Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Diet, Health, Aviaries and Conservation!
Ask Questions, Find Answers and DiscussionsKakariki Member Pics, Mutation/Species IdentificationInformation on Permits, Research Papers etcLinks to Other Sites and InformationYour A/C Details, Messages

     GT Modules
· Home
· Forums
· Email Webmaster
Email Webmaster for any problems with Registering, the site and General Enquires
·Link to Us, Details
Set to your default home page· Set Home page


       QuickSearch
Search Forums
for key Words
Advanced Search
 Search  Words

     NZ Conservation Projects


DoC / NZ Conservation Sites


Kiwi House and Native Bird Park
Royal Forest and Bird Protection Society of New Zealand
Parrot Society of New Zealand
MOTUIHE PROJECT
The National Wildlife Centre


Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Diet, Health, Aviaries and Conservation: Forums

Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Mutation question
 Forum FAQForum FAQ    SearchSearch     Log inLog in/Register  

Mutation question

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation Forum Index -> Kakariki Mutations and Species
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Allen
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Mutation question

I have paired a normal Green Red Fronted Male (parents were both normals) with a Red eyed Lutino Female Red Fronted.

What should I get?

In the nest, there is a normal green male and two females that look like Cinnamons. Is this normal or are there some split Cinnamon genes that came out from somewhere?

What will happen if I pair one of the female babies with a Pied Male? Any ideas.

Thanks, any advice will be appreciated.
Back to top
Kaka-riki
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:54 am    Post subject:

Allen,
I have long believed that the "red eyed" yellow mutation in Kakariki is in fact not Lutino. Your mating helps prove that theory. My thoughts are that the red eyed yellow is a combination of the cinnamon, fallow and black eyed yellow mutations.
The reason these birds have a red eye is because of the fallow mutation.
If I am correct fallow is recessive which means unless the cock bird is split to fallow none of the babies will display the red eye but would be split to the mutation as the hen is obviously carrying fallow.
Cinnamon is sex linked so if you have coloured young this would suggest that the cock bird is in fact split to cinnamon. If this is correct the cinnamon young could be either cocks or hens.
Hope this helps.
Back to top
Peter
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 11:08 am    Post subject:

Kaka-riki and Allen

I totally agree with Kaka-riki's reasoning but I like to add a few
things. To my knowledge there are 3 phenotypes wich are labeled as Lutino.

1) Same as black eyed clear but with a red tinge in the eyes.
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=download&id=78

2) A Fallow Cinnamon combo. Yellow but with a light brown suffusion through its body colour. The eyes are blood red with a transparant iris ring.
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?set_albumName=Mutations&id=Fallow_Cinnamon&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php


3) True Lutino. Pale yellow body color. Red eyes with visible iris ring.
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?full=1&set_albumName=album11&id=DSC00024&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Looking at Allen's pics in the gallery I tend to believe his Lutinos are true Lutinos.

Depending on wich kind of pied (dominant or recessive) I think a combination with a Cinnamon female can vary from green over green with minor pied markings to normal pieds.
All the males will be split to Cinnamon.

Peter[/url]
Back to top
Kaka-riki
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject:

Peter,
I can understand what you are getting to but I am now a bit confused as to how cinnamon would be found in a true Lutino bird. Cinnamon is sex linked so it would mean the cock bird Allen used is either split to cinnamon or the hen is carrying the cinnamon gene.
The only way to truly discover the make up of the Lutino bird is to mate it to a normal bird that can not be split to any mutation. The easiest way to do that is mate a Lutino cock to a normal hen.
Is it not possible that the eye colour (and iris) could be altered by the make up of the various mutations. I have a pair of cinnamon birds which are bred from my black eyed yellows. The cock bird has a normal red iris whilst the hen has a clear black eye. The young bird we are currently hand raising from this pair has a red eye which seems that it may be retained. It will be interesting to see whether the iris develops as the chick develops.
Back to top
kakariki
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 13, 2004
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject:

I like to discuss this question. To my knowledge there is only 1 dominant factor: dom. pied. When you pair a green male (split for nothing) to a recessive mutation, all the chicks are normal green and split for the recessive mutation.
There are many discussion about the lutino question which we can't answer before we pair them to pure greens. When you pair the chicks of this pair with eachother (brotherx sister) all possible combination will appear and by calculating it is possible to make some suggestions about the origin of the mutation of the parent.
But the biggest problem here in europe is to get pure greens. The pairing of Allen is a green male split for cinnamon. That means half of the young females are cinnamon and half of the males are split for cinnamon; but you can't see which male.
The young green hens are not split for cinnamon, but can carry a recessive mutation.
So get pure greens and keep them pure for this kind of pairings
Back to top
Peter
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:14 am    Post subject:

A while ago I saw a bird wich looked like a Cinnamon from a distance. When I looked closer I saw he had red eyes. The owner assured me it was a fallow.
Usualy a fallow is lighter in appearance than a Cinnamon but this one was identical.
It seems that Cinnamons have a verry light brown suffusion on the top of the green feathers wich this Fallow didn't had. So, maybe this is a trick to distinguish the two mutations.

Another question I ask myself concerning Lutino, Cinnamon, Fallow and Pieds is that they are all known as melanin altering mutations.
But why is there so much difference in bodycolour between the pale Lutino and Black eyed clear? And why is a combination of Lutino and Black eyed clear suddenly not so pale? Is it the pied gene(s) that alter(s) the yellow and red psittacofulvins?

Peter
Back to top
Allen
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for all the information.

The cinnamon babies do seem to be a little bit brighter (yellower) than my other existing "normal" cinnamon birds. It may of course just be because they are young and in fine feather that they look brighter.

Of the three chicks, there is a definite male green and a definite female cinnamon, the other cinnamon first looked like a female but it's beak is getting bigger so it clould be male.

I have a single male pied that I have had for a few months. Any ideas what the value would be of pairing it with the female cinnamon. I may well pair the brother and sister together just to see what happens.
Back to top
Allen
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for all the information.

The cinnamon babies do seem to be a little bit brighter (yellower) than my other existing "normal" cinnamon birds. It may of course just be because they are young and in fine feather that they look brighter.

Of the three chicks, there is a definite male green and a definite female cinnamon, the other cinnamon first looked like a female but it's beak is getting bigger so it clould be male.

I have a single male pied that I have had for a few months. Any ideas what the value would be of pairing it with the female cinnamon. I may well pair the brother and sister together just to see what happens.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation Forum Index -> Kakariki Mutations and Species All times are GMT + 13 Hours
Page 1 of 1
Copy Paste Text Here to Translate
Select Language and Translate

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by PHPBulletinBoard © 2001-2008 phpBulletinBoard Group
PHPBulletinBoard port based on Tom Nitzschner's PHPBulletinBoard upgraded to PHPBulletinBoard 2.0.7
Standalone Developed Tested by: ChatServ, mikem,
and Paul Laudanski (aka Zhen-Xjell).

by Nuke Cops 2004




All Logos and Trademarks in this site are Property of their Respective Owners.
Statements and Views Expressed on this web site Represent the Opinions of the Authors.
Neither this Site or the Publishers of this Site Assume Any Liability for the Information Contained Herein.
ANY CONTENT from this Site can only be DISTRIBUTED/PUBLISHED/USED ELSEWHERE with PRIOR WRITTEN PERMISSION
ALL COMMENTS/PICTURES/CONTENT are the PROPERTY of the CONTRIBUTORS and 2004/2015 by WWW.KAKARIKI.NET

Web site engine's code is Copyright © 2003 by NukePortal. All Rights Reserved. NukePortal is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL license.
Page Generation: 0.444 Seconds