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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Pied Gene?
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Pied Gene?
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natenla
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:20 pm    Post subject: Pied Gene?

I purcheased a male red fronted today and he has two white toenails and I think a yellow tail feather coming through. So I am pretty sure he has the pied gene? I am pairing him up with a cinnamon just for companionship, if they did happen to breed what would the babies be??
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:52 am    Post subject:

Hi, Natenla

It depends on what they are split to. The male is probably split to pied. If the female is also split to the pied gene, half the chicks will be pied and one fourth probably will have a few minor pied markings like the male.
If the female does not carry the pied gene, half the chicks will have minor pied markings. Anyway, the latter is the minimum you can expect.

If the male is split to Cinnamon half of the chicks will show Cinnamon. If he doesn't all males will be split to Cinnamon.

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Peter
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject:

Keep in mind NZ has no mutations that I know of in Kakariki
We have had several males and couple females with pink claw and the odd pink toe from one of of breeding lines.
We then in breed a couple of these and got the same result, but no yellow feathers. On most siblings from these(with and without pink toes) have a grey colour on the end of the feathers on the lower back of the wings.
We crossed one of these back to a normal red female (unrelated) and got no toes but still the grey feathers on males and females.
As the history and mutation of these birds is totally unknown what would we possibly looking at and where would we go from here?

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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:28 pm    Post subject:

Steptoe,
It appears that there are a dozen types of minor pieds in parrots. I believe this is one of them but a verry small one. Pied markings are random spread but it seems that it can be fixed by selection.
Also the strength of the pied markings can be selected. Maybe one day a yellow feather appears.

Peter
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Maybe one day a yellow feather appears.

So the task ahead ...working from absolutely scratch...possibly even more archicic than u guys ever where in the rest of the world....has NZ over 100yrs behind.

That "maybe" then "one day" tacked after it makes it seem a huge possibly improbable task.
Could always get my air brush out thumb lmao

I am a bit afraid of getting too inbreed in the lines. And dont know If I should be looking at male or females to pass the line down with crossing back to normals. I have no experiance in hybrids of any species.

What I have at the moment is
the orginal Dad...normal..Female died neither had pink feet
male and female off spring of these, and inbreed.
A male offspring off spring of these (Plus a couple females that have not been breed uin 'storage') crossed back to a unrelated normal
From these I have 1 male with 2 very pink claws who would be ready to breed off next season

I have a total 4 normal breeding lines I can use including the orginal male

What do u suggest I do next?

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:25 pm    Post subject:

Steps,
I think the birds you have bred are more than likely the recessive pied. This is how they started out in Australia several years back. The quickest way to get the ball rolling with recessive mutations is to start with 2 birds that have the mutation. Once you have bred from them the next steps are as follows.

Original Cock bird x best coloured daughter.
Original hen x best coloured son.

You can then select the best coloured cock birds from one nest and pair him to the best coloured hen from the other nest. After that you should have made some fairly noticeable improvements in colour.

To maintain size and fertlity introduce normal blood lines back into the mix after the above matings. A recessive mutation can have birds split to the mutation in both males and females so it will eventually become established for you. We spent around 4 years getting the Mottled pieds up and running here in Aus and they are recessive so it can be done.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject:

Sweet...that I understand.

It turns out that the orginal mother, with a diff male had previously put out some pink feet. Unfortunately she is no longer around.

Inbreeding....up to this piont our normals we have kept lines separate but breed across them, advoiding even 1st and 2nd cousins

brother sister or parent/sibling fine for a generation
1st Cousins thats OK?
And nephew/niece to uncle /aunty OK?
Or should the siblings of these be breed back to unrelated before proceeding further?

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:00 pm    Post subject:

Steps,
When trying to establish a mutation in birds (especially Kakariki) it will be necessary to inbreed. Because I am confident the pied mutation you have is recessive it should be easier to establish. But, it will still require some level of inbreeding.

My suggestion would be to try and maintain size and fertility whilst also increasing the coverage of the pied mutation. As long as the birds being produced are of good size and feather structure it should be okay to breed them back to reach your goal. Any siblings that show abnormalities will have to be disregarded and if that happens you will need to outsource back to good normals to keep the mutation strong.

In the early process of trying to establish a mutation breeders have been known to combine the first several clutches to establish numbers. That is the priority. Once that is done normals should be introduced to keep the mutation strong and viable.

Here in Australia the recessive pied Kakariki has taken a beating. Birds are often way to small and fertility rates can be zero. The majority of birds we lost in the hot spell were from this mutation and they simply did not have the strength to survive. We are now selecting the best of our remaining birds and pairing them back to normals to put strength back into the mutation. So we are pretty much starting off like you except we have some birds that display the yellow feathering as well. There is no value in doing this apart from the fact that if someone doesn't do it soon this mutation will be lost in Australian aviaries as well.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:58 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
show abnormalities

Ok what are looking for? other than a leg growing out of the ear signlol
Over the yrs we have had the odd chick breathing probs or lack muscle in a wing...but considering the # of birds breed and accepting even in the best lines the odd one crops up , nothing out of the norm. Maybe 3 or 4 and nothing in the last 2 seasons
Quote:
feather structure

Again not sure here either...
Question May sound strange, but we have only had good birds (maybe not show stds) They only sub std birds we have had are rescued, poorly raised, old and scrappy looking and hybrids.

Size...NOT a problem, from the original large male and smallish female, we are getting some of the biggest Kakariki I have ever seen in this line. And the trend so far is continuing.

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natenla
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject:

Wow it is all a bit daunting at first isnt it? Although I follow this better than any of the red rump mutations,signlol. I might have to annoy you guys once in a while and ask questions, so if I sound stupid please forgive me :oops: !
Thanks for all the tips so far.
Lets see if I got this right........ d'oh! if I breed these two I have now and pick the best male chick and breed back to mum,
then best daughter back to dad, I think I am getting it??
Then best male and female from these two clutches I should be starting out ok??? Laughing
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Cattscapes
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Pied Gene?

Hi natenla i think if you want to breed pieds buy some good ones. I started 2 years ago with weak pieds and found it very frustrating trying to get good colour. I had 1 pair that was pied toenail cock and normal hen and the best i got were pied feet. Another pair was pied male 5 flights and a pied feet hen and the best i got were a couple of flights. I think there is already been to much inbreeding in Australia and i find it very hard to find new blood. I have seen some great pieds breed from weak pieds but they were from good pieds and they are still very rare to find. In saying that if there is anyone out there in Aussie with good pieds that i have not tracked down i would love to here from you. Cheers Kev
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:21 am    Post subject:

Natenla,
If you want to breed pied Kakariki here in Australia the task is a lot easier than the job facing Steptoe in New Zealand. The best way to achieve good coloured birds is to combine a well marked cock bird back to a hen that is split for the mutation. That way you can produce good quality birds and not sacrifice size and fertility.

The reason I would suggest buying cock birds is that I am yet to find a well marked hen that isn't suffering from low fertility and or is the size of a sparrow. Stay away from this type of bird as you will pay lots of money and end up with nothing but grief. By using using split hens and well marked cock birds you can increase the colour of the cock birds and slowly build colour into the hens. I have attached a picture of one of the cock birds we have recently bred by pairing a split hen and pied cock bird.

Steps, keep an eye out for abnormalities in bone and feather structures. In bred birds will sometimes have weak feather structure and derformaties in beaks and legs. Look for loose and shabby feathering as opposed to the usual tight feathering of the normal Kakariki. The quickest way to tell is by observing the down on the chicks. Birds with bad feather usually start life with little or no down. I think I have some pics that I can post of what is good and what is not so good.



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natenla
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: deformed beak question?

The cinnammon hen I am thinking of breeding with my "pied" cock has a slightly deformed beak. (her bottom beak grows up over the side/top beak, she has no trouble eating, just need to clip it occassonally) Would this be hereditery?? do you think it would be ok to try her out or would it best to get another hen?
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Natenla,
It is difficult to know why your hen has the beak problem. The only person who could answer that accurately is the original breeder. She may have been born with the defect or suffered an injury at some stage.

My suggestion would be not to use her for future breeding programs unless you can be confident that it wont be passed on to the young. The other problem she may have is feeding day old chicks. When the chicks are that tiny it may be difficult for her to pass them food via a damaged beak. It would be a shame to breed with her only to lose the chicks because they couldn't be fed by her.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject:

This covers several issues over the last yr or so
1/ Reputable breeders and retailers WILL NOT pass on or sell 'defective' birds
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopict-385.html
2/It may or may not be hereditary, as Kaka-riki mentions to me Any "siblings that show abnormalities will have to be disregarded"

Granted abnormalities do occur..we have had a couple, can be due to an accident or care, diet in the nest...It is ONLY the breeder who will know for sure the cause.

A note to prospective breeders from their pets.
Take a DEEP breath, your pet maybe nice. friendly and part of the family, but if it is not up to scratch...
1/you will not have good results
2/in a yr or so u will find u will have to start from scratch and wasted a heap of time effort and money
3/The off spring if put into circulation will just add the same problems and time wasting that you are currently having(and Cats mentions his experience) for others...Dont perpetuate the circle. u will also have a tough time gaining the respect of top breeders later.
A note to this...a top breeder of good lines will not sell or pass on good lines to a known breeder of poor lines.

SO I highly recommend, keep your pet as a pet.
If u wish to breed, the guys here will see u right with good breeding stock and put u on the right track You will not be the 1st by any means that they have done this with. The Market place part of the forums may look quiet, but lot goes on behind the scenes of this site. You are in good company here.

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