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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - dark factor mutations
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dark factor mutations
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: dark factor mutations

i have an old cage and aviary paper dated july 1996 with an article written by ivan dyer showing a dark factor pied.i am wondering did this mutation survive and or does it still exist today in england. also does any one know of ivan dyer and his kakariki mutations .
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject:

Brett,
Ivan Dyer wrote a couple of Kakariki books. His most recent was titled Kakariki Colouring Book and highlighted several of the mutations he had in his collection at the time. It is very basic in it's descriptions etc but considering it was written some years ago and is probably the only book ever written on Kakariki mutations we shouldn't complain too much.

I have just flicked through the book and found the answer to my question on the red eyed birds we have produced. According to Dyer in 2001 he had in his aviaries red eyed dilutes. This had been incorrectly classified as Lutino's and by removing the black eyed clear influence he established that there is a dilute mutation in Kakariki. Thanks for prompting me to dig out the book. There is no reference in the book to dark factor pied birds.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject:

Brett, Greg

I do not know of any dark factor. What I do know is that the Black eyed clear gene has another Pleiotrophic effect. I believe that the yellow of the BEC is not the true groundcolour of the Kakariki. The original colour is paler than that. I have a pair that recently produced 3 true Lutino's and 1 Lutino-BEC combo. The 3 Lutino's are of a butercup yellow and the BEC is golden yellow. Therefore I believe that the BEC causes an increase of Psittacine. It is funny but I have several times attempted to make a comparative picture of these but is not visible on photo. I believe there is also an increase in bodycolour. Some greens have a deeper green.

Quote:
This had been incorrectly classified as Lutino's and by removing the black eyed clear influence he established that there is a dilute mutation in Kakariki.


There is a difference between a true Lutino and a BEC with plum eyes. Lutino>pale yellow, red pupil, bright red iris; BEC with plum eyes> golden yellow, combined with Fallow or Lutino.

The Fallow BEC I have show indeed a Cinnamon looking colour but I have always viewed this as enhanced Fallow. Maybe there is a second type of dilute but it has to be a Fallow cause along with the Ino gene they are, if I'm not mistaken, the only types who retain the red eye.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject:

Sorry, I had some difficulties to upload some pics. Will try tomorrow?
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject:

Peter,
In Ivan Dyers book he makes reference to both the fallow and red eyed dilute mutations. He views these as completely seperate mutations. The fallow he describes has a clear mandible and visible red eye and iris. He also states that very few of these birds take on the cinnamon appearance and usually have no blue feathering in the wings

The red eyed dilute he refers to, has a plum coloured eye and distinct red iris. It does however retain the blue feathering in the wings and at first glance could be mistaken for cinnamon. The mandibles still have a dark tip but this is a lighter shade than both the cinnamon and normal birds.

He also classifies the Lutino as a completely seperate mutation yet again. At the time this book was published his belief was that there is in fact a true Lutino mutation that exists in it's own right. However he also concludes that no test matings had been carried out to confirm this.

It is a very interesting book and highlights the fact that there are many mutations in Kakariki that until now have simply been lumped into one category without too much thought. The result is now we have so many different combinations it is difficult to work out what is what.
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject:

greg the red eyed dilute that ivan talks about seems to fit the birds you have bred to a tee and seems to fit with the bec.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:54 am    Post subject:

Enhanced plumage


Enhanced-plumage.jpg
 Description:
Enhanced plumage
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Enhanced-plumage.jpg



creamyyellow.jpg
 Description:
True Lutino. Note the creamy yellow.
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creamyyellow.jpg



BECFallow.jpg
 Description:
BEC mysterious dilute/Fallow combo.
 Filesize:  149.52 KB
 Viewed:  247 Time(s)

BECFallow.jpg


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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject:

Peter,
The picture of the bird you have posted with the title mysterious dilute/fallow combination has the same colouring as some of the BEC we have produced. Because all of our pairs consist of one BEC (yellow bird) mated to a split bec we have been able to produce "splits" that are in fact the dilute mutation. Some of the BEC birds from these matings also display the plum coloured eye.

I believe that in Europe you have access to both the fallow and dilute mutations where as here in Australia at this time we are working with the dilute ony. Perhaps the Lutino mutation comes about from combining the fallow with BEC. Whilst the dilute lightens the yellow colour of the BEC one or two shades the fallow takes that process even further. It would be interesting to know if this theory is correct and would explain many things.
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:14 am    Post subject:

greg after doing a bit more reading correct me if i am wrong but a dilute mutation doesnt have red or plum eye but on the other hand a fallow does so may be you have produced a type of fallow out of your bec.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:21 am    Post subject:

Brett,
After getting a reply from Terry, on his genetics web site I am now totally confused. wall He agrees that they can not be dilutes. That flys against the description of Ivan Dyer so your guess is as good as mine. Looking at the pictures Peter has posted of his fallows in the past, I don think these are the same due to the fact the fallows in Europe have clear beaks. As you know our birds still display a dark colour on the tip of the beak, albeit lighter than that of the normal bird.
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject:

Peter wrote:
Enhanced plumage


Has somebody check the nails,they are white.
Mij wildcoloured kak's have all black nails and beaks.




only one male has a black tip on his beak.

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject:

I am a little confused re the "Enhanced plumage"
We get both plumages in all our wild colours randomly

_________________
My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject:

Peterlimburg wrote:
Peter wrote:
Enhanced plumage

Has somebody check the nails,they are white.
Mij wildcoloured kak's have all black nails and beaks.


That is correct. My goal was to demonstrate the enhancing effect of the Dark eyed clear. Look at the eyes.
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:26 am    Post subject:

Perhaps it's coming from, crossing over different subspecies of the redfronted kaka's with each other.
I'm not sure ??
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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
I am a little confused re the "Enhanced plumage"
We get both plumages in all our wild colours randomly


This is interesting. Do you mean there is also a variation in the pure normals?
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