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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Yellow- and orange fronted kakarkies
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Yellow- and orange fronted kakarkies
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Peterlimburg
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Yellow- and orange fronted kakarkies

duno I have here a german paperback with an artikle about the Yellow and the orange fronted kakarikies.
They says that the orange fronted kakariki is a colour mutation of the yellow one.
Also they says that there is an breeding program with orange fronted kakarikies in New-zealand.
Here on this site is a link ,which says that the orange fronted kakarikies are genetic more familair to the redfronted kaka's Shocked .


http://www.doc.govt.nz/Publications/004~Science-and-Research/Science-for-Conservation/PDF/SFC176.pdf

para.6.2.3 - 2 alinea

Does anybody nows more about this,or is that true ??
Think Kakarikies are strange birds somehowe Think .
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Lin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject:

I'd love to know everyone's opinion of this - good find Peter
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject:

Thev orange, as mentioned in new articles etc, was always thought to be a hybrid...but private breeders knew very well it was a species.
So DoC in its wisdom destoried them...
Rosemary Lowe covered this a while back
http://www.kakariki.net/download-file-2.html

Then DNA came along, a couple yrs back, and sure enough they turned out to be a separate species...And NOW ONE OF THE MOST ENDANGERED ON THE PLANET

So DoC is now blaming rats etc from their almost total extinction, when it was them who wiped out those in captivity.

Now one can apply to keep breed the Orange, and be approved, the catch is, ANY EGGS or CHICKS MUST BE DESTROYED

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Lin
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject:

It's sad to see that government departments the world over are all as stupid as each other Laughing What is the difference between the orange and the hybrid between yellow and red kaks? (Noticeable differences I mean Laughing )
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Steps, is there or should i say was there an area in the wild that the red and yellow fronteds ranges overlapped and created naturally occuring hybrids as has happened here in aus with most of our rosella species. just a thought on how the orange fronted may have evolved. are there many orange fronteds left in private hands. if not then the future looks very bleak for this little bird indeed.
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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject:

An orange-fronted kakariki has a distinct crown compared to the yellow-crowned. Variation in colour also (more orange unsurprisingly). A red-yellow hybrid usually has a red crown but with yellow-tinted feathers at the top of the head.

Our NZ Department of Conservation in fact does a very good job of trying to conserve this species, as well as the hundreds (thousands?) of others in NZ, considering that it is under-resourced for a government department accountable for 33% of the country's land area.

There has never been any evidence that private breeders always knew it was a distinct species while others did not. Previously it was considered a sub-species/morphological variatino of the yellow-crowned (e.g. in the 80s/early 90s). For a more interesting debate consider the Chathams Island red-crowned and Reischek's parakeet hybridisation on the Chathams.

NZ DOC has never destroyed orange-fronted kakariki. No breeding of captive birds is allowed for two main reasons

1) there is a large body of literature, particularly focused on parrots/parakeets, which shows that captive raised birds are inferior behaviourally to wild birds. The primary goal of conservation is in situ (latin for in its place) conservation of species, i.e. in the wild. Only as a very last resort should conservation of a species be undertaken in captivity, usually as a last resort or joint activity with wild conservation where possible (i.e. if captive animals can be rehabilitated into the wild). For the most part captive birds shouldn't even be considered part of a wild population, since they don't contribute to breeding in the wild.

Certainly for the orange-fronted kakariki their demise is almost entirely attributable to introduced mammal pests over the past few hundred years, and to say otherwise is wrong.

Its good to get the correct facts out there on such matters.
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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject:

reds and yellows would certainly have overlapped across NZ in the past. The mode of speciation is unknown, but they have distinct niches/habitats (as anyone with both species would recognise) and so that may have helped. Yes they do hybridise naturally with estimates from 1 - 10% (from Little Barrier where they do both still exist).

Orange-fronted are probably just a radiation (spin-off) from yellows. The DOC paper Peter refered to earlier describes the branching tree. Its a good and free report to look at.

The conservation of orange-fronted is looking OK in the wild (see news item on front page). Even if hundreds of birds were bought into captivity and bred successfully, it doesn't mean anything for conservation in reality, as unless the birds are part of a functioning ecosystem in the wild, they are just token relics in a bunch of aviaries. Certainly if they CAN'T persist in the wild then for conservation for its own sake we should have them in captivity, but DOC has many passionate workers who are working very hard to save this species in the wild whre it came from and where it belongs. DOC does maintain its own emergency back-up population at its national aviaries though.

NZ DOC is very loathe to utilise private breeders because of the bad reputation some of them have earned in the past, which reflects badly on all private breeders in NZ.
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject:

NZ doc seems to have some very strange ideas on wild life managment. at what point do DOCS decide they have reached the last resort point , 100pairs 50pairs or the last pair in the wild. all way too late for the species survival . aviculture can and will help save this little bird if allowed to do so.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:49 pm    Post subject:

Departments such as Docs (NZ) are the reason so much of our wildlife is going to be lost forever. A vast majority of wildlife, parrots included are very adaptable to change within their environment. Lame excuses that captive bred birds can not live in the wild is simply a cop out. I wonder how many of these "passionate workers" have stepped outside the confines of their own comfortable environment and bothered to talk with those people THAT DO commit themselves to preserving wildlife.

I find it rather offensive that private breeders are considered incapable of assisting with the preservation of bird species such as the Kakariki by the very dept. that has been charged with establishing their future. Those sorts of near sighted, selfish comments ARE the reason these birds WILL vanish sonner rather than later.

Unlike govt controlled departments, private breeders DONT get paid for caring and raising the birds. The amount of time and effort involved in what is essentially a hobby DOES NOT warrant the results a lot of the time so WHY do these breeders exist in the first place. Because THEY CARE about the birds they keep and their reward comes in the form of breeding results. It is NOT simply a 9 to 5 job. So please dont insult the rest of us with those type of comments on this site. It is utter B#$%$T.

If NZ is serious and doesn't want to become a laughing stock to the rest of the world in regard to wildlife conservation, I suggest Docs pull their heads out of the sand and WORK with people who understand the word PASSION. Actions will always work better than words.

If you want further proof perhaps you can explain why a NZ breeder would set up and maintain a site of the quality of this one. And, why have so many people from all around the world flocked to this site looking for answers and sharing experiences. Docs may not care about their native Kakariki but the REST OF THE WORLD DOES. If your Docs workers are so passionate perhaps we could ALL have a look at their web site to compare notes.
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:35 am    Post subject:

Are the DOC back up emergency population allowed to breed normally or are the young and eggs culled. do the birds breed if so what are the breeding results.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Our NZ Department of Conservation in fact does a very good job of trying to conserve this species,

When DoC 1st rescued orange from the wild, they waited for the foster females to leave the nest for 4 hrs incase the foster mother abandoned the eggs...Some thing private breeders told DoC there is no need to do..but they did.
Then from what I gather, they did not check the new aviaries after the contractors finished building, a poisoned several birds.
Then the breed them in large politically correct flights, and when too young, had to catch them, stressing the young, and blamed the ensuing deaths on transportation.
Everyone of these issues private breeders knew about and had advised DoC unoffically...since DoC doesn't recognise Private breeder expertise, they ignored it.

Quote:
There has never been any evidence that private breeders always knew it was a distinct species while others did not.

Rubbish...evidence is not available thru DoC simply because DoC doesn't record or listen to private breeders

Quote:
NZ DOC has never destroyed orange-fronted kakariki. No breeding of captive birds is allowed for two main reasons

So what did happen to the Captive orange in Nelson?..they didn't go to other breeders, they didn't go to zoos, and DoC didn't release them because THEY thought they where hybrids.

Quote:
1) there is a large body of literature, particularly focused on parrots/parakeets, which shows that captive raised birds are inferior behaviourally to wild birds

And this is to be expected...after all the evidence also shows parrots have an unusual ability to learn and adapt, It is then logical that while in captivity they adapt to that, when released they adapt to the wild.
THERE IS NOT RESEARCH as to how well Kakariki do adapt, thu it is well know they do other wise DoC would not be releasing rare captive kakariki right?

Quote:
Certainly for the orange-fronted kakariki their demise is almost entirely attributable to introduced mammal pests over the past few hundred years, and to say otherwise is wrong.


Wrong Kakariki where killed off by early settlers in huge numbers as they had no nature fear of man or shot guns...Pests in orchards. Then rat/stoat populations finished them off because there was not a population big enough to sustain them.

Quote:
Its good to get the correct facts out there on such matters.


Quote:
reds and yellows would certainly have overlapped across NZ in the past.

Reds and yellows where common as house sparrows thought the whole country, Orange, going back over early settler document ion where not isolated in the bottom of the Sth Island as DoC would have us believe but where also common everywhere.

Quote:
The conservation of orange-fronted is looking OK in the wild (see news item on front page). Even if hundreds of birds were bought into captivity and bred successfully, it doesn't mean anything for conservation in reality, as unless the birds are part of a functioning ecosystem in the wild, they are just token relics in a bunch of aviaries. Certainly if they CAN'T persist in the wild then for conservation for its own sake we should have them in captivity,

News item is early days, like DoC its just a matter of hoping there is not a fire or real bad winter...
The rest...sounds good but means squat

Quote:
but DOC has many passionate workers who are working very hard to save this species in the wild whre it came from and where it belongs.

Yep and I have posted many times praising the grass roots guys, then when one starts talking to them, off the record, they are as frustrated as the rest of us as far as DoC policies go...these ppl and private breeders are in agreement, but they have to do the same as everyone else...the boss is always right. DoC even ignore the Ministers who also have common sense (Ministerial Directive Sept 2003)

Quote:
NZ DOC is very loathe to utilise private breeders because of the bad reputation some of them have earned in the past, which reflects badly on all private breeders in NZ.

What a load of utter CRAP.
Breeders are permitted...breeders are MEANT to be monitored...Breeders ARE NOT. DoC knows who are the good breeders, after all the grassroots guys wouldn't have to ring up for advise (off the record) They wouldn't be closing bad breeders down (when they stumble on them) and passing the birds onto reputable breeders (off the record)
Hey ...every new aviary I build has to be approved...So I let DoC know, the guys in DoC know I am a reasonable breeder...As they are under staffed, and over worked (grass roots guys) they make a note of my aviaries, and thats it...no visit, inspection...and thats not just me, other reasonable breeders are also treated with the same respect.

If one is to get on in DoC and NZ Conservation, one must be seen to tow the line and not make waves, and even be proactive to DoC policies made by some desk jockey in Wellington who if had 1/2 a brain would die of confusion.[/quote]

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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject:

Online discussions (arguments?) tend to expand at an exponential rate, so I will try to keep it brief (bullet points).

1) DOC makes mistakes, just like private breeders. Unfortunately DOC is held a lot more accountable by public (esp. private breeders).

2) Even if private breeders bred up thousands of birds, you can't just hand them over to DOC and say 'take them away'. DOC simply doesn't have the budget to helicopter them all to pest-free islands. So unless someone else can pay..? To that end, perhaps a group of conservation minded kakariki breeders could start such a group and apply for commercial/private funding to organise this. That would be very constructive, and I already know of one group doing specifically that.

3) Even if they could be bred up that fast and released on safe islands/pest free mainland areas, this is such an unnaturally rapid population increase that it would be prone to catastrophe. Conservation has moved well beyond the primitive view of "breed'em up and stick'em out there". If a catastrophe did occur (e.g. disease), and wiped them out, I have a feeling that some cynical people would simply turn that into another opportunity to berate DOC.

4) It is, always has been, and cleary remains that there is a large gap between breeders and DOC. Certainly some breeders are entrenched in their views, as comments on this forum testify, and DOC is also entrenched in some views. I, and the breeder I referred to earlier, are trying to bridge these gaps. But I can assure you it is difficult with the large amount of mud-slinging and historical hang-overs that many people engage in. Some times we just have to forget the past and move on, like in any functioning relationship.

Steptoe often states that private breeders are unofficially consulted. I am not sure exactly what you mean, or why I think you are saying this is a bad thing. Isn't this the only way they can be consulted? A phonecall to check up on things? How would you like to see the process formalised? Perhaps breeders and/or DOC could keep minutes of all discussions/advice so there is a paper trail we can refer to, rather than heresy of "I think, you think, this is how it happened", etc?

Evidence is not available through DOC or anywhere as far as I am aware that private breeders knew they were a distinct species well before.

The evidence I have (published research) shows that captive raised birds released have significantly greater chances of dieing than wild raised birds in a population. Many reasons. Can't identify food/threats, etc. There is some research on kakariki (see Mark Dawe's PhD thesis). And I know another student who is about to embark on this project. I continually urge these students to contact people on this site, but they tell me that after reading the forums they feel the environment is too hostile. Other kakariki breeders have also said this to me. Take from this what you will, I'm just the messenger. Kaka-riki, thanks for the highly unconstructive comments.

Hunters did kill kakariki, but realistically they wouldn't have put a dent in the wild (e.g. Fiordland) populations. Introduced pests insidiously did the largest part of the damage. But Steptoe is correct, these processes are often multi-factorial. I am unsure about your comment that DOC's records of original range are at serious odds with historical works. One always expects some variation in opinion. I didn't think there was any major discrepancy though. Which historical records are you referring to? I'd like to have a look for my current research. Of course given early settlers would have had trouble distinguishing yellows from oranges, there probably is a lot of unknown range areas.

For examples of bad breeders just ask the breeders who let reds and yellows hybridise, or build below standard aviaries (I've come across them all in my time). The ones who collect parrots as trophies, rather than for animal compassion. Someone needs to regulate these types, as they reflect badly on all breeders. DOC can't do this. Its effort is to be spent conserving animals in the wild.

Making waves is one thing, but institutional change can take a long time. DOC is a big organisation and can't just change views over night, not the least of which is because they must be accountable, because (as one reads here) they have many critics. Perhaps if private breeders were less critical DOC could trial new innovative ideas without risk of criticism or hindsight 'I told you so's'.

As far as I am aware the organge-fronted at Mt Bruce breed. They were the source for Chalky Island (news item).

Thanks for the constructive dialogue Steptoe. I have less to say to kaka-riki, who has just thrown some comments out there with no evidence to back them up.

"Departments such as Docs (NZ) are the reason so much of our wildlife is going to be lost forever". I'd in fact say that introduced pest species are.

"Lame excuses that captive bred birds can not live in the wild is simply a cop out". No, its a proven fact. I can send you the references and examples.

"I wonder how many of these "passionate workers" have stepped outside the confines of their own comfortable environment and bothered to talk with those people THAT DO commit themselves to preserving wildlife"

I wonder how many of these private breeders have visited DOC to talk about kakariki conservation? The road goes both ways. I know Steptoe does, though in his own playful way sometimes.

"I find it rather offensive that private breeders are considered incapable of assisting with the preservation of bird species". But some of them are considered capable? That is why DOC consults with some of them, and utilises some of them for said breeding.

"Because THEY CARE about the birds they keep and their reward comes in the form of breeding results. It is NOT simply a 9 to 5 job. So please dont insult the rest of us with those type of comments on this site. It is utter B#$%$T.". I never said breeders weren't also passionate. Of course they are. Just like the grass-root DOC workers. Recognise though that breeders are different to conservationists. Conservationists firstly want the animal conserved in the wild, and don't need a collection of them at home. Breeders want them at home and in the wild. Breeders can also be conservationists (its probably a poor choice of words but I hope it highlights the subtle distinction).

"If NZ is serious and doesn't want to become a laughing stock to the rest of the world in regard to wildlife conservation". But NZ is considered a world-leader in conservation?

You are wholly entitled to your opinion kaka-riki. But most of what you said here is unqualified and not appropriate.

Wyndara - Its not black and white (at what point they bring them into captivity). DOC keep a back-up supply of many native birds at Mt Bruce for security. "aviculture can and will help save this little bird if allowed to do so". I would be more inclined to say 'may help'. Like anything it may or may not work. It is VITALLY important to recognise that such a collaboration is not a small task, and would amount to much more work than just letting breeders breed them up to release them into the wild. At worst that might be unethical if they have a high death rate, at best it is still a very expensive exercise. In the 80s many breeders released kakariki and felt they were doign good for conservation. These birds inevitably ended up dead. How sad =(

Not so short. Sorry.
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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject:

Oh and kaka-riki. To compare notes with DOC go here

http://www.doc.govt.nz/publications/004%7escience-and-research/index.asp

and search for 'parakeet'

Where are your notes? Perhaps breeders could publish an annual collection of notes. DOC could refer to these. That would also be constructive progress.
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gecko
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
2) Even if private breeders bred up thousands of birds, you can't just hand them over to DOC and say 'take them away'. DOC simply doesn't have the budget to helicopter them all to pest-free islands


Why would DOC do such a thing anyway. Most of us know most off shore pest free islands are well populated with kakariki, its the mainland that needs repopulating.......or are you just referring to Orange fronted K's

It saddens me to realise that the bit of bush that I spend many hours stoat trapping in, is a long way away from the reintroduction of spiecies like Kakariki. Its a beautiful piece of bush called Otanewainuku, one of the few remaining areas in the Bay of Plenty that has never been logged. It has good populations of tui, kereru, tomtit, north Is Robin, whitehead, kiwi, and the odd Kokako...maybe just one Crying or Very sad

It seems the main obstacles for reintroduction would be time manhours and money. All the things DOC are lacking and all the things a selected few private breeders are willing to give

Instead I will continue to spend hours on my stoat line while noting inferior behavior of the ever increasing population of sulphur crested cockatoo and Rosella

Otanewainuku may not be the most ideally suited but there are now many locations throughout the country worthy of Kakariki release and I'm know many people share my view
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject:

First i have to add what a great forum. I really think these type of discussions are important and need to continue for the future of the wild Kakarikis.

Second, i believe DOC policy of a backup population is flawed on a number of points. To me its a case of putting all your eggs in one basket or their case it should be all their eggs in one omelette. Having only one backup population is wrong in itself but to have that population in NZ or even surrounding islands is flawed. As Steps mentioned what happens if disease or other natural events further reduce numbers in the wild. HAs DOC sent Orange fronts to zoos around the world that specialise in Avian species? Surely having 3 or 4 isolated populations makes more sense.
Please correct me if i am wrong this may have already happened but i doubt it.

Apocrypha i am a member of a South Australian Bird Club, every year we donate money to a good bird cause i.e. Adelaide Zoo Bird department or other conservation project of the Avian kind. if there was a fund up and running for the orange fronted kak, we would have no hesitation donating funds and other bird clubs would follow.

There can be a successful outcome when Governmment and private breeders work together. I refer to the very endangered Orange Bellied parrot of Southern Australia. A bird that had not been a legally kept species in Australian Aviculture. To cut a long story short, private specialist breeders were used to breed up numbers in captivity, both parties worked together right through to release. Sure there were plenty of problems along the way, but no one said it would be easy. Just shows if boths parties work together good results can be achieved and the birds are the winners.
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