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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Yellow fronted mutations
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Yellow fronted mutations

 
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wyndara
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:58 am    Post subject: Yellow fronted mutations

Peter, can you tell me if in Europe are there any true yellow fronted mutations or have they all been crossed with the red fronts as seems to have happend in Australia. has anyone in AUS seen any true yellow front mutations, any i have seen are all hybrids.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:22 am    Post subject:

Brett,
I have seen both cinnamon and mottled pied in the yellow front species. Not sure if these were bred via the red fronts but the birds are now very pure in appearance. We purchased some cinnamons from a breeder several years back and these were also pure breds. As a matter of interest the young hen in the picture was recently bred from one of our BEC pairings. To the best of our knowledge there is no yellow front in this mutation yet the bird appears to be a hybrid. Either that or we have struck gold and managed to breed a normal looking fallow where only the frontal band has been affected. Any ideas Peter????????



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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:55 am    Post subject:

Quote:
To the best of our knowledge there is no yellow front in this mutation yet the bird appears to be a hybrid. Either that or we have struck gold and managed to breed a normal looking fallow where only the frontal band has been affected. Any ideas Peter????????


Im not sure what areas u are refering to...
Our wild yellows, tend to have a slightly lighter green yellow chest than the reds as in the pic above.
I notice a faint patch behind the ear..yellow crown dont have a patch.
None of our wilds yellows have pink legs/feet

Another habit that yellows have, and have never observed in reds.
When hanging off the wire or sometimes a perch, just before take off, they twist there head like a ballet dancer, in the direction of take off ...Then take off.
The nature od yellows is very different...far more mellow...a red at 1/2 or 3/4 speed.
The hybrid yellows here (rescued birds) do neither of the latter.

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Peter
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:47 am    Post subject:

I've never seen a true (normal) yellow (mutation) in our regions. However, there are. The yellow in this topic seems quite pure. http://www.kakariki.sytes.net/ftopicp-3928-.html&sid=e4b0624a832fbc37161841859c72b8dc#3928
The ones I have seen were all hybrids. Maybe there are true mutations in yellows but I think it is most likely they are coming from the reds.

Most breeders don't care about or don't know the difference between a yellow and a red. A while ago, I saw an advertisement "Kakariki for sale" accompanied by a picture of a recessive BEC yellowfronted. I replied the owner with the question whether he sold reds as well. He said "yes, just like the one in the picture". It took several emails to convince him that the one in the picture was a yellow fronted.

On bird sales I see often these rec BEC yellows along with BEC reds for sale in the same cage. The size of these birds is the same like a red. So, I have reasons to believe that this mutation is transferred to the reds.

Another point of attention/confussion is the variation in body and eye colour of a normal red. A statement of Apocrypha recently took my attention.
Quote:
reds and yellows would certainly have overlapped across NZ in the past. The mode of speciation is unknown, but they have distinct niches/habitats (as anyone with both species would recognise) and so that may have helped. Yes they do hybridise naturally with estimates from 1 - 10% (from Little Barrier where they do both still exist


Probably that's why there is so much variation.

Greg, on my computer the bird looks indeed like a hybrid and visual split (pink toes). A Fallow is much more paler/yellow. The most striking in Fallows are the clear red eyes on hatching and the edged wingfeathers.
The flightfeathers can varry from grey to greyish blue.

http://www.kakariki.sytes.net/ftopic-724-0-days0-orderasc-.html&sid=6cadec60858420f8aabf104fb9a91290
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject:

Peter,

I dont think the bird in the picture is a hybrid. This bird was bred from our red fronted BEC's which have NO yellow front bloodlines in them. The pair from which this bird came has so far delivered in excess of 12 offspring with no other young appearing as this one does. The same pair does however also breed the fallow mutation we have discussed before. This is the reason I am curious. Is this a pied hybrid or in fact a crossover between the BEC, the pied and the fallow. I am not sure what to test breed this particular bird to now as we dont want a line of hybrids but this may be something different. It is now 3 months old and still retains a clear black eye as well so it may be a double factor bird.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject:

Yellows are noticeably smaller than reds
As far as hybridising in the wild "estimates from 1 - 10% " As far as I can establish there is no evidence of this, and at best I believe this to be no more than a wild Gesstimate.
If there where hybridisation, it would not be hard to do a simple count.

We have had yellows and reds together...due to a situation not to breed..and I know of other breeders who have kept them together and they report there is no interest between the species.
I believe that if put in a forced situatijon then after several attempts the one Could get them to breed....but not naturally.
they have different natures, there calls are slightly different, their breeding habits are a little different, and they dont go to the ground the same...
No doubt there would be other difference we havnt noticed.

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wyndara
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:12 am    Post subject:

Greg i have seen a few pics now of BEC in europe that had to be yellow fronts because they only showed a narrow red frontal band. your bird in the pic does look like a hybrid but there are lots of question marks still to be answered. i would probably pair her to a normal yellow fronted cock for now at least, to see what colour young appear. it may be a line that leads to no where time will tell.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:33 am    Post subject:

Here they are.



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wyndara
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:57 pm    Post subject:

Peter, nice birds can you tell me what the parent birds were.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject:

Brett and Peter,

I caught up the bird in the picture earlier today and checked the head area. The reason for the orange coloured band above the red is that this area is actually pied. It is the first time I have actually seen pied feathering in this area of the head. I wonder if this a reverse of the BEC which breeds a lot of green in the head of the yellow birds. I have attached another pic of one of this birds brothers which is a BEC with the green in the head area. If you look closely at this pic you will notice the red in the head area is also more of an orange colour.



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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject:

Wyndara, I've found them in the gallery in one of the members album. Biloulous' Birds (Belgium).
This is the only mutation from which I am certain that it is a true yellowfronted mutation. Unexperienced breeders see them as redfronted BEC. The difference is that this one is not a pied.
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:07 am    Post subject:

Greg, I' am afraid that the bird in the picture is a hybrid. The pied effect is the yellow crown that wants to show himself.
Attached is a pic of one of mines. He shows the same crown.



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wyndara
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:34 am    Post subject:

Greg have you any more pics of your bird in the first shot iam like you not convinced it is a hybrid. the second pic of BEC i think is to young to make ajudgment on as the crown will change as it matures. Changing the subject alittle i know of two breeders now who have been breeding normal red crowns for years. both breeders have produced yellow crowns out of the reds just recently for the first time. two things that seem odd, 1 both lines of birds can be traced back at least 4 generations with no yellow crowns appearing,2 all the yellow crowns to date that have appeared are cinnamon and none of the precedding young were cinnamon at all. The yellow crowns must geneticly be hybrids yet none of the adult breeders show any sign of hybridization. Just shows how we can get caught and odd birds can appear.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject:

Brett and Peter,

I am very confident that these birds are not hybrids. I bred the cock bird parent of these birds but purchased the hen from another breeder. There is a very interesting piece of information involving this pair. The cock bird is a normal/BEC that we bred from our original pair. This pair has also produced the fallow birds as well. The hen we bought is also from the fallow line but with different blood lines.

The birds were not quite 12 months old when first paired and their first clutch produced 3 young birds. Two of these are BEC that have now coloured up and display the normal red across the head. The split hen that was bred in this clutch is also of normal appearance. Brett has viewed these birds recently. But, during the first adult moult of the cock bird I noticed he has visually lightened up in colour. The frontal area (chest) is now noticeably much lighter. It is very similar to what happens in the cinnamon mutation when the birds have access to sunlight. But, you must keep in mind this bird is a normal colour and I have never seen this in the normal coloured birds.

After this moult the birds went back to nest and these birds are the result of that nest. So, one may ask whether the change in colour of the cock bird is now a visual progression in the young birds. I have tonight studied pictures of the cock bird before and after the moult and he is now a very similar colour in the chest area to that of the hen in the picture on this thread. His wings and back area are still very dark the same as a normal coloured bird.

One of the other young hens that was in this clutch is also very different. Every time I see her in the aviaries I am concerned that she is bleeding from the nose area. On close inspection the red frontal band is a deep, dark red unlike any bird I have seen. The reason for this is that there is also green feathers coming through in the frontal band. That should not be possible but as we know strange things occur in mutations and my opinion is that something is working in this particular pair that is not present in the other BEC's we have in the aviaries.

The pair is presently sitting again and I am awaiting the hatching of this round of eggs to see what new developments are happening this time. The interesting thing about genetics is that sometimes the rules seem to be broken and I think this may one of those situations.
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:01 am    Post subject:

Peter,

This is one of the BEC's from the first nest of this pairing



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