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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - are my birds hybirds?
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are my birds hybirds?

 
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zigzag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: are my birds hybirds?

I have recently purchased a pair of yellow fronted kakarikis in perth western australia from a reputable dealler. i asked him all the right questions ie. how old are the birds, Are they brother and sister and are they hydrids. going on what he said i felt comfortable with the birds and purchased them. Sice having the birds i have fell in love with them and also became a member of this very helpfull site. Since being a member i have noticed in the gallery the hybrids identification chart where i noticed that yellow fronted should have no speckles of red in the yellow. My cock bird (Bombardo) has one speck or maybe two just at the begining of the yellow crown. comapring the sites photo bach to back with mine i have noticed that the sites photo have red which runs through the crown more but it is quit hard to say. I am having troubles trying to identify weather im being to analitical or not. I would realy appreciate some feed back as the pair really want to go to nest and i dont want to breed bad babbies.

Thanks
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zigzag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject:

this is a pic of his crown can anbody help?


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zigzag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:18 pm    Post subject:

this is another pic not so zoomed in


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zigzag
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:45 pm    Post subject:

sorry the last one didint really come out finding it hard to rezize the photo and keep the picture quality


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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject:

Hi ZigZag,

I would suggest (from the pics) that your bird is very close to being pure. The problem with Kakariki is that hybrids can show up several generations after the initial pairing. If there are no red cheek patches on the birds I would suggest that by pairing 2 yellows fronts you may be able to produce close to pure species. The other way to identify pure yellow fronts (if in doubt) is by size. The yellows are naturally smaller than the red fronteds. Cock bird should be around 25cm in length and the hen around 22 cm in length. Red fronteds are 28cm (cock) and 25 cm (hen).
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject:

They are definate yellow hybrids...we have several rescued yellows here that are almost identical.
To breed aout at that level will take many generations and u will need to breed them back to pure bred.
I would also suggest that they are related.
Sry, it is not what u want the hear.
Steps

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debbie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: hybrid

sorry i agree with steps ,i think you have a hybrid ,reson i say this is i know the photos are very unclear but in the second photo im sure i can see a little bit of red behind the eyeas with true yellow fronts they donot have any red behind the eye at all ,as with a true red front who does have red behind the eye.also the yellow fronts i have bred in the past are exactly that tru yellow no wishy washy yellows. hope this helps
debbie
ps dont breed them will you.
p.s.s you bought them from a dealer, you can get anything from a dealer .plus im in perth and ive learnt this lesson real quick,and i put odds on which dealer it was,wich im not going to say on here but i can asure you i now only buy birds from reptable breeders.you should do the same.
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zigzag
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject:

Thanks for all the info. but i would like to ask another question the pictures i showed are all of the cock bird the hen seems to be good only her crown is not so colourfull. I have spoken to the bird dealer as he said i could swap it i looked at the replacemen cock and he does not have any red in his crown or behind the ears, but it does have slight faint yellow behind the ears there is definatly no red. do you guys think i should get the replacement cock.

If not can anyone direct me to breeder in perth.

Thanks alot
james
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:37 pm    Post subject:

Personally, and it was meationed in posts a couple yrs ago. (or was it emails) to obtain a pure breed yellow outside NZ is near imposible, simply because ppl crossed them...
Your frustion, and the polite bloody mindness of members in general, has been created and continus to do so, by crossing.

I believe, it is so bad, it will take several breeders, over many generations of selective breeding to get back to something reasonable.

Bottom line..I would be going back to the guys and tell him, u have hybrids.....

See the large kakariki on the banner at the top of the page? it winks at you...why? have a good look at its crown.

Yeah ..sick sence of humour signlol

If u want to breed, get of some of the members here, look at mutations in the reds. They have good stock..
If I didnt think so I wouldnt be meeting up with a couple in Aussie in a few weeks.

Sorry if I sound a bit blunt
Steps

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Cchan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject:

zigzag wrote:
Thanks for all the info. but i would like to ask another question the pictures i showed are all of the cock bird the hen seems to be good only her crown is not so colourfull. I have spoken to the bird dealer as he said i could swap it i looked at the replacemen cock and he does not have any red in his crown or behind the ears, but it does have slight faint yellow behind the ears there is definatly no red. do you guys think i should get the replacement cock.

If not can anyone direct me to breeder in perth.

Thanks alot
james


Depends on whether you love Bombardo. If you do, try to convince yourself it is genetic variation Wink

No one can be 100% sure that is a hybrid, unless there is record of a red-crowned in the ancestry. There is no scientific proof that extra red feathers can't occur in the crown of a pure yellow-crowned parakeet. The definition of pure/hybrid by crown plumage pattern is more by human impression rather than scientific evidence (although there are some very obvious hybrids).
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:29 am    Post subject:

Quote:
There is no scientific proof that extra red feathers can't occur in the crown of a pure yellow-crowned parakeet. The definition of pure/hybrid by crown plumage pattern is more by human impression rather than scientific evidence (although there are some very obvious hybrids).


Cchan is accurate and correct in his scientific assessment...

I mean the following in all due respect...

The gentic scienfic research on kakariki is limited to spcies and resent.
Historically, private breeders for several generations maintained the Orange was a separate specs...the Gov maintained they where a hybrid.
Even sponsered breeding could not produce an orange over many generations, and was totally ignored.
The policy is no hybrids in captivity, and huge numbers even collections of the Orange where destroyed in the 1990s.
A couple yrs later it was confirmed thru genetics to be a separate species, too late, as it is now one of the rarest and most endangered bird species in the world.
NZ Gov (DoC) Beaucratic attitudes towards private breeders resulted in them us being ignored.
Again, private breeders knew that the DoC (Gov) source release of kakariki on Tiri tiri Matangi Consevation land where hybrids before hand...Some 20 yrs on this has now been confirmed by DoC.
NZ Gov (DoC) Beaucratic attitudes towards private breeders resulted in us being ignored.

I am of the firm beleif that my assessments above are 100% correct, they are made from our own observations, and those of kakariki breeders before us, world wide. I believe that once again, sometime in the future, the generations of kakariki breeders world wide will again be proved scientifically correct in this matter.

Steps

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debbie
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: hybrids

stop ,gaday im in perth do your self a favor and get yourself over to my place and check out my birds and talk to me before you do anything.send me a pm and let me know what you think and send me a contact phone number so i can let you know when it will be the best time for me.
also i do have kakas for sale at time to time but there red fronted not yellow but i do have contacts and ive got a pritty good reputation,not blowing my own trumpet or anything but ive been ripped off before and its not a good thing.if i can help you i will
debbie
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Cchan
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Joined: Jan 05, 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:56 pm    Post subject:

Steptoe wrote:
Cchan is accurate and correct in his scientific assessment...

I mean the following in all due respect...

The gentic scienfic research on kakariki is limited to spcies and resent.
Historically, private breeders for several generations maintained the Orange was a separate specs...the Gov maintained they where a hybrid.
Even sponsered breeding could not produce an orange over many generations, and was totally ignored.
The policy is no hybrids in captivity, and huge numbers even collections of the Orange where destroyed in the 1990s.
A couple yrs later it was confirmed thru genetics to be a separate species, too late, as it is now one of the rarest and most endangered bird species in the world.
NZ Gov (DoC) Beaucratic attitudes towards private breeders resulted in them us being ignored.
Again, private breeders knew that the DoC (Gov) source release of kakariki on Tiri tiri Matangi Consevation land where hybrids before hand...Some 20 yrs on this has now been confirmed by DoC.
NZ Gov (DoC) Beaucratic attitudes towards private breeders resulted in us being ignored.

I am of the firm beleif that my assessments above are 100% correct, they are made from our own observations, and those of kakariki breeders before us, world wide. I believe that once again, sometime in the future, the generations of kakariki breeders world wide will again be proved scientifically correct in this matter.

Steps


The species definitions in Cyanoramphus are not very clear anyway, and my feeling is that all Cyanoramphus species can hybridise with another. Afterall, species concepts have been debated in the past many years, and there seems to be little consensus. Personally, I don't think people should delibrately breed hybrid animals or encourage different species to hybridise (in Chittagong zoo in Bangladesh, they put Indian lions and Bengal tigers in the same cage, and I was very suspicious of what they were trying to do!), but as long as the suspected hybrids are kept away from the wild populations, I don't think there is a huge problem there, and besides, the animal rights people would say that hybrids have their rights to survive!
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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject:

There is a reason why so many yellow fronted Kakariki in AUSTRALIA are not true to species. That reason is simply GREED.

When the red fronted Kakariki started to produce mutations (cinnamons and pieds) several years ago some breeders quickly realised that the money tree these mutations were creating would not last due to the rapid numbers that were being bred. So, they came up with the idea that by breeding the red fronted mutations into the yellow fronteds they could double their money in half the time. Only problem was that they didn't realise that the consequences of their actions would see the yellow front Kakariki almost wiped out in it's true form.

My suggestion to those breeders wanting to keep and breed yellow fronted Kakariki is to find birds as close as possible to the true form. By breeding from these birds the mess can be turned around and with outcrossing back to similar birds eventually the majority of yellow fronteds will start to resemble that of their true colours and markings. This will take time and patience but it is not impossible to achieve.

In the meantime if you really want to help the cause AVOID dealing with those breeders that knowingly cross the yellow and red fronted species and when purchasing birds ask the breeder for a history of his birds. Even dealers should be able to provide this information if they want to keep their reputation.
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