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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Ring Their Necks?
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Ring Their Necks?

 
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2005 10:04 pm    Post subject: Ring Their Necks?

Well I have a serious problem...That faces any Kike breeder in NZ
We wish to increase our breeding stock of yellows.
We have approx 9 large healthy pure breed Reds left over from last season and this season and don't have room for them.
We cannot sell or give then to anyone without a DoC permit, and DoC has a policy that private captive cant be released regardless of heath or breeding. Illegal release is NOT an option.
Regardless of introducing the yellows we still don't have the room.
After asking around, there seems to be a drop in permits, and other breeders are having similar problems to the extent of no longer breeding Kikes.
Tomorrow I will phone around the Zoos etc see if they want them for Free.

If that fails we have no alternative but to ring their necks. Sickening ?
DAMN BLOODY RIGHT!!

The Reds and yellows are NOT endangered, why? Not because they are common in the wild, they are near extinction and without the efforts of DoC on offshore islands they would be. But because of the numbers (of which I can find no official numbers /surveys in NZ or world wide) held in captivity in NZ.
Considering the trend, of breeders, slowly but surely 'giving up' Kikes and moving to imported birds where there is a thriving export market I believe, we are heading to the same situation that created the orange Kike to be one of the top endangered species in the world.
See in the download section and article by Rosemary Lowe and Orange fronted Kike.
I make no apology for my anger and frustration, it is not of my making but that of those who make policy and Law.
Of the 2 evils...
Ringing our Kikes necks
Or releasing under controlled conditions in a predator environment in the wild for study research for the future
The latter I find far more able to stomach

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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:48 pm    Post subject:

Your post is misleading for a number of reasons, and is tantamount to the metaphor "I'll eat the meal before me but don't want to be involved in the hard yards of making the meal or doing the dishes afterwards".

If a breeder has surplus kaks, that is entirely their fault. They shouldn't blame DOC or anyone else. We couldn't handle any more kaks, so we didn't let them breed. Even if you are forced to allow them to breed (they can get violent around the season) then you can remove the eggs. Problem solved. Imagine saying to the government 'oops I've had too many kids and can't support them now - welfare please!'.

DOC rightly so has a policy that they can not be released, and it is in fact the opposite of what you say. It is EXACTLY because of health and breeding (not regardless) of. 3/86 kakapo died this year because of an unknown pathogen. Imagine releasing your kakariki and they have one of the 24 hidden diseases identified by Keey 2003 (not withstanding unidentified ones). This starts killing off all the kak's, then the kaka. Eventually it knocks of the kakapo. Oops! Jakob-Hoff's standards note that such diseases often lay latent in a population befroe years befoer flourishing in the right conditions. And releasing hybridised kakariki would just be criminal. Releasing pure-bred kakariki near a population of the other colour would also be criminal, they could meet and inter-breed. This fact is often overlooked. Do breeders know where every population is relevant to them (and how far they move regularly?).
The only thing DOC can be guilty of hear is not making it clear enough to these breeders that the birds are fecund (and breed often) so be prepared.

If you choose to ring their necks that is your choice, based on your previous decisions (to bered them).

Red's and yellows are not endangered in the wild. They are classified as common locally. i.e. on offshore islands for reds, mainland forest for yellows. Falla et al. (NZ bird book) says they flourish in these loactions (and he is correct). DOC didn't put them on offshore islands they just survived there, though DOC has since established Tiri as a new population (there were already 6 others naturally established). I've seen enough wild populations flourishing. You don't see the bellbird either (in Auckland) but its just fine. Just not in Auckland. In considering status the captive population is NOT considered. I am unsure where you consider that population to be the majority. Only in captive programmes are captive birds enumerated.

I am unsure what you mean by referring to 'heading to the same situation' as orange-fronted. What led us to this situation is too many predators and not enough funding to DOC to work on this (as well as hundreds of other bird species - see DOC annual report). Rosemary Low's article is very poor. As someone not only not involved in the program but LIVING ON THE OTHERSIDE OF THE WORLD. It is tantamount to your mother-in-law telling you how to run your house. Thanks, but you have no idea what really goes on and are just whining and stirring (Rosemary).

Once again do not blame the policy makers. Those policies are made FOR THE KAKARIKI not for the breeders. I would personally love to see a study on them in the wild, but this entails $$$. Releasing them entails $$$. Breeders seem happy to do the fun breeding work but not cough up the money (thousands of dollars) for working towards the release. Until such time as all groups have co-operatively worked together for a long-term solution (which we are), private breeding of kakariki in New Zealand will merely be an ancient relic of past captive days provided for avid hobbyists.

---

NB this response is loaded with my usual vitriol, but me and Keith get on just chipper (I still hope). We felt the debate was useful for everyone else.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject:

Apocrypha wrote:
Your post is misleading for a number of reasons, and is tantamount to the metaphor "I'll eat the meal before me but don't want to be involved in the hard yards of making the meal or doing the dishes afterwards".

If a breeder has surplus kaks, that is entirely their fault. They shouldn't blame DOC or anyone else. We couldn't handle any more kaks, so we didn't let them breed. Even if you are forced to allow them to breed (they can get violent around the season) then you can remove the eggs. Problem solved. Imagine saying to the government 'oops I've had too many kids and can't support them now - welfare please!'..

I see your logic and it is correct....
But lets for a moment expolate the logic, so we stop breeding, so we stop learning and experiance, an so we now rely on DoC for such experiance, that as u stat below they dont have the money , nor do they have anywhere near the expriance, which now takes us back to square one, bumbling in the dark.
Althu a change in policy and law regarding inclusion of 'approved screened breeders' would certainly up the stds, and provide a greater gene pool and kike numbers for controlled release, in numbers that most properly compete with preditors.
Breeders have been pushing since pre 1923 to no avail, for such conditional release. A policy that the Minister himself requested in Sept 2003 to be completed by sept 2004...and hasnt. This is not the 1st time this has happened.
Quote:

DOC rightly so has a policy that they can not be released, and it is in fact the opposite of what you say. It is EXACTLY because of health and breeding (not regardless) of. 3/86 kakapo died this year because of an unknown pathogen. Imagine releasing your kakariki and they have one of the 24 hidden diseases identified by Keey 2003 (not withstanding unidentified ones). This starts killing off all the kak's, then the kaka. Eventually it knocks of the kakapo. Oops! Jakob-Hoff's standards note that such diseases often lay latent in a population befroe years befoer flourishing in the right conditions.

Once again, the probems described above have been caused by incomplete screening, and capitive birds also not having resistance to 'native' desease. Much of the above is assumptions...we just have to look at the last 100 yrs of unscreened introductions from deer /possums/sparrows /myna/thrush/black bird/ rats mice /stoats/rossella, cocktoo/lorrakeets AND continuing uncontrolled kike releases. the arguement to say the risk is high, when historically its low , and the odds are any pathogens are already in the wild.) this doesnt mean no caution, screen future releases,) add to that importation is illegal, plus it seems the much of the very small importation that may get thru customs is not for the NZ markets but NZ being a stop off point. Then add to that to make smuggling a risk issue assumes that NZ breeders in the majority are of a criminal nature...I dont think so...The arguement doest realy carry water in the real world but looks good on paper. There are a couple studies re this I read a couple months ago that have been buried, as un popular and dont fit with current policy interpretations.
Quote:

And releasing hybridised kakariki would just be criminal. Releasing pure-bred kakariki near a population of the other colour would also be criminal, they could meet and inter-breed. This fact is often overlooked. Do breeders know where every population is relevant to them (and how far they move regularly?).

Yes we both agree strongly "And releasing hybridised kakariki would just be criminal"
There are other issues to that I am sure DoC or any acedmics have not considered...reds and yellows existed in the top and bottom of the forest.
Upto 150 to 200 yrs ago our forrested where 2 to 3x times the height of any current forest, even that which has grown back in the last 100 yrs.
Hence the vertical 'space' between the species doesnt exist. To release, in the same location controlled or uncontrolled mixed yellow /reds COULD be a mistake...but thats assuming distance in the floor/canopy IS what keeps them from not cross breeding and not something like ultra violets head patches like a thumb print that attracts like species, as is the case in other parrot species.
Quote:

The only thing DOC can be guilty of hear is not making it clear enough to these breeders that the birds are fecund (and breed often) so be prepared.. .

I aggree, which raises the point Why? It certainly is not because of lack of information, unless most of the information is with experianced breeders in NZ and off shore and they dont reconise it as such.
Research costs money, yet much of the required info is already avalible.
Kiwi and many other species are breed by private breeders for release by DoC, If DoC had private breeders programs for Kike then the issue of unauthorised releases would not exist, or at least be minimised to the max with all the advantages discussed elseware WIN /WIN
Quote:

Red's and yellows are not endangered in the wild. They are classified as common locally. i.e. on offshore islands for reds, mainland forest for yellows. Falla et al. (NZ bird book) says they flourish in these loactions (and he is correct). DOC didn't put them on offshore islands they just survived there, though DOC has since established Tiri as a new population (there were already 6 others naturally established). I've seen enough wild populations flourishing. You don't see the bellbird either (in Auckland) but its just fine. Just not in Auckland. In considering status the captive population is NOT considered. I am unsure where you consider that population to be the majority. Only in captive programmes are captive birds enumerated. .

I have made another post here re lot of rubbish refering to misinformation on the net, my informtion is from the net, not DoC (who dont publish such info that I can find) and therefore my arguement could very well be incorrect. By the same token it was not long ago the kike was extinct on the mainland...DoC hasnt released in many areas that it is not now extinct, distances /prevailing winds between islands and colonies established on the mainland plus preditors between certainly dont support mirgation as claimed in many cases...it doesnt add up, and it is known there are illegal irresponsable releases...matter of head in the sand? and are these releases species birds?
Quote:

I am unsure what you mean by referring to 'heading to the same situation' as orange-fronted. What led us to this situation is too many predators and not enough funding to DOC to work on this (as well as hundreds of other bird species - see DOC annual report)..

DoC wouldnt reconise the breeding of 100s of orange kike in Nelson, nor the insitance of the breeder that they where a diff species (latter proved correct) they destotyed these birds, then an infux of preditors hit the wild stock, an there was no 'back up stock' Now its going to costa small fortune to resore with a limitted gene pool with consiquences of that eg bad hearts
Quote:

Rosemary Low's article is very poor. As someone not only not involved in the program but LIVING ON THE OTHERSIDE OF THE WORLD. It is tantamount to your mother-in-law telling you how to run your house. Thanks, but you have no idea what really goes on and are just whining and stirring (Rosemary)...

hmm or it could be said that a veiw looking in is objective, and sees things /agendas others cant cause they are to close. Theres nothing wrong with my Ma-in-Law giving giudence with our childen, for example, grand parents Should play an awfull big part in parenting....but thats another issue that has be lost in out 'modern world' There is a difference between interference (which is active) and pionting our errors. Lowes articule was reseached on a visit TO NZ not done from the other side of the world, and location in this day and age with communications as we have now, means squat. You know that from your own resaerch projects.

Quote:

Once again do not blame the policy makers. Those policies are made FOR THE KAKARIKI not for the breeders.

Yes that is MEANT to be right and is the motivation of NZ breeders. Historically as meantioned above re destorying and ignoring private breeders re the orange kike, refusal to reconise the expertise of private breeders (althu unoffically pick their brains big time) Not competing tasks set by Ministers, The policy makers or is it the policy carry outters by actions do not have the kakariki completly as the prioty...its actions that speak, not words.
Quote:

I would personally love to see a study on them in the wild, but this entails $$$. Releasing them entails $$$. Breeders seem happy to do the fun breeding work but not cough up the money (thousands of dollars) for working towards the release.

Breeders have maintained flocks stocks at great expense over the years, have been prepared to help out, provide breeding programs facilities expertise, runing into 10s of thoudsands of dollars and more, over the years, Mimisters have contunually been ignored for moves in this direction, as has been the case with other species. To say Breeders havnt is very wrong, they havnt because they have been PREVENTED from doing so.
Quote:

Until such time as all groups have co-operatively worked together for a long-term solution (which we are), private breeding of kakariki in New Zealand will merely be an ancient relic of past captive days provided for avid hobbyists.

YES IT IS ABOUT TIME that happened, that IS one of the main objectives you and I got together to achieve where others have fought for and failed over the last 80 or 90 years.
I have logs as to who and or where ppl that visit this site, and what they see. We invite DoC, and other organisations, societies, Zoos, to join us in this quest of cooperation and information...they visit, they dont join, they take but dont give.
We are prepared to help /support, and do ,they dont reconise or give credit.
We will continue to do so....the move is theirs to pick up, the winners Are NZ conservation and our grandchildren.

---
Quote:

NB this response is loaded with my usual vitriol, but me and Keith get on just chipper (I still hope). We felt the debate was useful for everyone else

James and I may differ dramatically on some points of veiw, we are have done so here and privately, we dont loose sight of creating a cooperation internationally/locally of Zoos and the government and its employees, for the benifet of resortation of Kakariki for the enjoyment of our Grandchildren.
I certainly hope that this debate brings pressures here and off shore to achieve what we set out to do....coopperation.
I will state, there are a lot of very good ppl in DoC and of like minds who have the abilty to take things a long way forward........ Shame on you

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Apocrypha
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject:

Whhee reply.

Trying to keep it short for the forum, which a good argument can never do.

Kak's don't compete with predators they lose. More kak's just equals more food. Mammals need to be controlled.

You referred to other species breeders e.g. kiwis/brown teal. Yes DOC does use them, but about as many as you can count on one hand. To scale up to kakariki you are talking about hundreds of breeders, for a less-threatened species. And the concurrent paperwork for managing all that, as well as what to do with all the old un-certified stock. I think it can and should be done, but is a massive process (many years to perfect). That is why it is such a barrier. I believe the current updated captive management guidelines you refer to are currently doing the rounds internally in DOC.

I am not a pathologist but the introduced diseases you detail from those species have been numerous. Salmonella, TB, Lepto, PSV, etc (it goes on). We are blessed that intro mammal diseases don't worry us too much. I don't think you can say its 'low', probably 'unknown' is a better word. I guess that's my point. Its all unknown, and even though it may appear low, the consequences could be high (bye bye all parrot species). Iagree it could look better no paper, mainly through lack of application in reality rather than lack of the pathogens in reality.

It was a DOC guy who did the NZJE paper you refer to on niche seperation in canopy. That seperation only occurs at high density. It is numbers that are the issue. If you put 5 reds down low and 5 yellows up high they would much more likely interbreed than 500 low and 500 high. Same as 500 low and 5 high. Those yellows would be amalgamated.

Not to sound like a scientist, but sounding exactly like a scientist, science is complicated. One study done 10 years ago doesn't have as much relevance as you might think in another place 10 years later. We can't just cross them over. History has shown that this leads to undiscovered problems which a quick study beforehand might have picked up.

The orange-fronted is a sad story, compounded by an under-funded department. DOC has excellent kakariki staff, but they are too busy dealing with saving the birds on the ground to fill out paperwork and do reports for the wider public. It doesn't take long befoer you spend all your time doing paperwork and none diong the work. If breeders are so avid about saving kakariki I suggest they join DOC or even better volunteer for DOC to work in with DOCs management strategy. Then from within you might learn some things and change them from the inside. Saving birds in the wild is specifically more important than maintaining a relic population in captivity. And a key difficulty learnt from overseas is that when it comes to the conservation, the breeders are suddenly a lot more obstintent about releasing control of their birds. In fact my DOC colleagues tell me the main issue with working with breeders is they want to follow their own rules/ideas and not work in with DOCs strategy (which is contra to what you say breeders have tried). It seems there is a philosophical breach pertaining to control of any program. I liken it to when you join a company. Even though you might know more than the boss, you don't start swinging your weight around. You do as the boss says, you work the system, and get up there and make changes. If DOC were to let kakariki breeders do so, then the breeders would have to realise they are working for DOC and the wider public, not themselves. Their birds would no longer be their own to do with as they please.

Although Low may have done her research, I wholly suspect that if she were in the position of DOC she would find it a whole lot more difficult. Its very easy to throw rocks at a glass house, I wouldn't recommend it inside it though.

I think if DOC picks private breeders brains then they must clearly recognise their expertise. Although we here may be the glowing exemplary of private breeders, if such breeders are all so concerned then why do I consistently see hybridised birds for sale? Why do I consistently hear of individuals (and groups) releasing birds? Why don't private breeders mix stock every year as proper captive management should ensue? Why aren't any of the kak aviaries I see up to national standard? Because the majority of breeders just don't care (though they'll say they do). Although you and me might be good in such a pgroam how does DOC deal with lazy arses X & Y who just want some $$$ and to swing their weight around?

I've got a lot of good people to visit this site over the last few months, but like me they are trying to save a sinking ship. They only have time to look around and see everyone else panic as it all goes down. Wake up people. The country (world) is in crisis! Donating a few dollars a year, or the meagre national funding is not going to do anything. At the risk of sounding like the Green party manifesto, ecological collapse is looming and yes it will affect our economy and international relations a wee bit. I'm also trying to stop rats invading all our islands, any time I spend here is borrowed from my personal life. I am sure that is the same for DOCers and Zooers (and web adminers). Everyone loves environmental scientists for saving the world, nobody wants to pay them or the costs however when they can go buy a new widescreen TV or flash car, perhaps take a holiday somewhere.

I've ranted enough. </end topic> email me if anyone wants to discuss further.
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Allen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject:

You two have raised lots of interesting issues. I only have a couple of comments.

Nz has a first world economy and is relatively wealthy. Conservation of your heritage is important for your entire population and not just kakariki breeders. Your tax payers should be funding your DOC initiatives more and not private breeders. We have a similiar problem here with the Cape Parrot (only hundreds are left in the wild and the wild population is being ravaged by Beak and Feather desease introduced by imported parrots like ringnecks and Cockatoos). Our DOC has limited resources and a few big parrot breeders and academics are providing the bulk of the manpower and funding to try and save the Cape Parrot. Every year hundreds of volunteers go out into the yellow wood forests to count Cape Parrots. These birds only nest in dead Yellow wood trees. Yellow wood is a hard wood and grows very slowly and is extremely valuable. The living trees are a protected species but the dead trees are not. See the problem?

Breeders in NZ should be swopping birds with other breeders for new blood and to prevent in breeding. Swopping birds will incur costs and risks but I think it should be done.

Steptoe build or set aside two largish aviaries and seperate your non breeding males and females into these aviaries. There should not be any fighting as long as you have more than one feeding station and no nest boxes. Kakariks are social birds by nature when not breeding and I have kept six of the same sex in a 2m by 2m by 2m avairy for about two years without any problems. Try this and alternate your breeding birds with non breeders every season. (Give them all a chance not to die a virgin) Lol.

Remember kakarikis don't live forever and you will need young birds to replace older birds and if you have a supply of bachelor birds, you may find somebody with a permit in a couple of months time. Gecko looks like he is going to need a replacement female soon becasuse even if that female (egg binding / tumour?) survives, I don't think he should allow it to lay eggs again.

I can't think of too many things more distastefull than ringing a healthy kakarikis neck.
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C0nor
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:31 pm    Post subject:

Just a quick question..... Does anyone have any hard facts or personal experiance to suggest that wild reds and yellows interbreed as freeley as suggested? How after thousands of years isolated on these small islands do 3 seperate species still survive?
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:14 pm    Post subject:

Well its like this
1/ James is one of those professional up coming Scientists doing crazy stuff completing a PhD with honours or some fancy thing. has access to University Archives and knows how to find scientific papers on just about any thing.
James has posted a bibliography of just about all the scenic stuff that has been published in the download section...how we get to it from there I haven't looked yet...
2/Me I'm just an old fashioned hands on type guy with a practical outlook on things
3/Melianne, loves her birds is a keen hobbits
4/You're a keen keeper getting your feet wet and liking it...
5/Kakariki breeds show birds and wins international prizes with his kikes
6/Allen a respected breeder experimenting learning and moving up
7/Gecko Im not sure , bit of a mix of the above??
8/Then theres other members, highly experienced and respected amonst breeders and DoC a like. Dont post but are there working in the background.

(I hope know one is offended signlol, just my imagination running wild)
Anyway, look at the above, could one really get a better team and collect together over time a greater wealth of knowledge in I place??
I think there could be....the above plus some of the DoC experts, and those from Zoos, couple Vets plus a few more ppl like the above.
But as it stands, I dont think there would be a better experiance and knowledge pool anywhere in or around the world, on Kikes.

Allen, Kakariki have discussed much of your question...
As suggested abovein above posts, maybe further research under controlled conditions may need to happen to complete some of the answer??

I'm beginning to think, somehow, the info spread thru the forums needs to be put in some form of order soon??

Edit:
Its a LONG way to scroll back up to the top !!!!!!
d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!

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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:01 pm    Post subject:

Allen wrote:

Steptoe build or set aside two largish aviaries and seperate your non breeding males and females into these aviaries. There should not be any fighting as long as you have more than one feeding station and no nest boxes. Kakariks are social birds by nature when not breeding and I have kept six of the same sex in a 2m by 2m by 2m aviary for about two years without any problems. Try this and alternate your breeding birds with non breeders every season. (Give them all a chance not to die a virgin) Lol.

I can't think of too many things more distasteful than ringing a healthy kakarikis neck.


Currently we have 2 aviaries of 3 flights (see plans in another thread of one and gallery) A 3rd has been planned, taking over another rose garden, identical to the plans in forums, but due to time /work etc has been put off.
We had 6 (mixed sex/age/no nesting boxes) in the left flight of the aviary in forums, move another 3 in yesterday. In NZ we dont have much recorded experience on how or at what point overcrowding takes place, and neither has DoC practical studies.
Nor the effect doing the above has on pecking orders etc etc...some species of parrots/birds can get out of hand.
Upon introduction of the 3 new kikes, it was amazing to see the current residents, the dominant male 1st, go up to them, place a foot on their back , and more or less , say "hello how are you, good to see u,w3c"!!! Then everyone carried on as if nothing was different Shocked
We continued to observe from a distance, then 'keep an eye on them 'from the kitchen window not far away.
2 days gone by now, and its all so normal is boring signlol, but oh what a wonderful sight to see so many, sharing food, socialising.
I think that one of the critical issues in maintaining such a flock, is a constant high quality food supply 2x a day, thats results in no competion for that food.
One of the new Kikes introduced has damaged wing, (an accident from something we dont know how happened a week or so ago) This was introduced on the assumption, if there was going to be any aggression he would be a fine target....once again nothing happened, hes quite happy running around like a monkey, and socialising no different than the rest.
We picked up the yellow Kike pair this morning, introduced them to there new flight/nesting boxes, they are quite happy as well.

We have another 5 or 6 reds week old, these will be the last of this season, we have decided to raise these, then also add to the others in a couple months, and observe.
There is 'talk' about 'soft' release of kikes into the wild...IE place all the Kikes into a holding flight for a period, close to the release point 1st.
The above observations/reporting, DoC may find useful for their programs currently and in the future.

In the download section I have put the Minister of Conservation's policy regarding protected wildlife policy, private cooperation etc

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Allen
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:19 am    Post subject:

I still want to one day try and allow Kakarikis to lead a kind of natural existence over here i.e. build a large planted aviary 5m by 5 m or even 10m by 10m and keep a small flock of red fronted kakarikis in there and allow them to breed and see what happens.

Steptoe thanks for the "respected breeder" comment.

I have kept and bred birds for a large part of my life, starting with budgies at age six. Used to breed budgies and cockatiels as a child in order to make my pocket money, had about 50 birds. Have been breeding other species for the last ten years and have been keeping kakarikis for about six years.

My wife and I saw some kakarikis at a large breeder and the birds were so cute, tame (maybe hand reared) and lovable that we decided to buy all six that he had at the time. I new nothing about kakarikis and could not find anything in any of the bird books I had at the time. I found very little info on the net but eventually got an email from a kiwi, John Warne, I think, know him, of him? He gave me some usefull info a bout them but found out most of what I know from word of mouth and trial and error. Word of mouth is dangerous as you have to filter information, some is valuable, other is utter rubbish and just speculation.

Its nice to be part of such an interactive site as I have learnt a lot and also been prompted to think and observe more of my bird's habits and behaviour.

I have not seen the "foot on the back behaviour" by a male yet, now I have something else to be aware of and look out for.

I miss my first bunch of kakarikis, when we kept them all together, I could sit in the aviary and four of them (all females) would come and climb all over me and eat out of my hand. I think they were trying to eat me Laughing as they would scratch my skin/ clothes and pull on my hair and any scab or any other interesting body parts.

Kakrikis are definitely my favourite birds for an aviary.

PS I have no yellow fronteds, they are quite scarce, I have only seen them twice at breeders and advertised for sale only a few times. I hope to get some in a year or so when I have more space.

[/quote]I'm beginning to think, somehow, the info spread thru the forums needs to be put in some form of order soon??

This would be usefull but probably take a long time to do, search function Idea ????
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gecko
Foundation Member
Foundation Member


Joined: Nov 25, 2004
Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject:

I have observed the foot of the male placed on the back of a mate and thought it was a courtship thing as I only have 2 birds
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C0nor
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Joined: Oct 24, 2004
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:22 am    Post subject:

My birds do the foot thing, but in their case it is more of a get out of my way now thing.
I have seen it done to my quail, i think that it is just how they explore... duno
I have noted that the dominant male is much more vocal than the other birds and when his mate wants a feed she makes a high "squeaking" note.
My aunty and uncle recentley went to pureora forest park and saw some wild kakariki, i am guessing yellows, my parents see them often when they are out tramping so one day i am going to make the effort to get out there and find me a wild bird and see what it does!
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Apocrypha
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Joined: Oct 10, 2004
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject:

Observing wild kakariki is difficult. They fly away. Going to Pureora next weekend though. See some yellows.

Dawe (1979) hand drew about 20 beautifully cute diagrams of all the different kakariki behaviours. I should really scan them sometime.

Goto http://www.nzes.org.nz and download scientific papers on everything. Once you get past the verbose scientific speak itas fantastic. The paper in the reference download section here is really nice! This is the guy that observed up to 5% hybridisation on Little Barrier. They co-existed in the past because before mammals there were so many of each species that numerically they were most likely to be able to match up with the same species. If you drop down to aviary size, much more likely to mate with another species. I also bought my first kakariki from a breeder who had left them in a joint cage for years without any real monitoring. Hybrids were rife.

Allen - we planted a 21ft by 8ft aviary and within 3 months it was bare earth. They even rape the flora on 200ha Tiritiri.

I enjoy feeding a single blackberry to our kakariki. The dominant male takes it and doesn't share. His Mrs comes along and he bends away from her, if she tries he moves the food away. When she gets to incessant he does a beak threaten WITH the fruit in his mouth. So although seemingly offering it its actually a usual beak threaten which she responds to quickly (fly away).
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Allen
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Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:09 am    Post subject:

"Observing wild kakariki is difficult. They fly away" - Laughing Kiwi humour :?:

Maybe you should try observing kiwis instead or maybe a stuffed Dodo. They can't fly away.

I find the males are always the ones that come and take food from me. I thought it was to do with the fact that the male gets to know where the food comes from (tames easily), while the female spends half her life (virtually) in a nest box.

I had 5 or 6 females together in an aviary for a while and they became very tame and all crowded round to take food out of my hand.

Am going to be observing male dominance from now on.
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Steptoe
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Joined: Oct 06, 2004
Posts: 4508

PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject:

After losing and recovering a female Kike (see thread Gecko wants a yellow) I put her in with the reds mentioned above...
She hasn't mixed well, like adding reds. On 1st introduction, the was no w3c, but rather a 'cold shoulder reaction
I noticed yesterday she was a little 'ruffled' nothing serious as if she has been harassed, just 'moved on' Especially more so my the males than the females.
Today she is looking a little More ruffled and there is no sigh on stopping.
I have also seen a similar reaction when a yellow flew into a red breeding flight a while back...It was threated rather aggressively, more so than if a red went in there.
We moved the yellow out this evening in with another coupe yellows.
Once again, a similar reaction as to when Reds where added to reds.
Sort of "hello?" then a lot of gentile, quiet conservation between them.
Each taking their turn...all within a meter of each other.
Yellows and reds do have a very different, chatter to each other.
Watching I would describe the difference as, A Kiwi, using local slang, grammar talking to a Sth African in English, with a strong Dutch accent, and different grammar.
I make this comparison, not just in jest <v> , Also from my communication with Sth African school teachers, and parents of Children I coached in Jr soccer.

I do think there is much more to the species not interbreeding than we have discussed in these forums. Or that has EVER been punlished anywhere.

_________________
My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
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Sailorwolf
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Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject:

In regards to the start of the topic, if we want this to change we must all act together at once and in force, or else nothing will happen.
So if we all co-operate and start a petition and make this dilema known to the average New Zealander and animal lover we can cause a change to happen!!!! But to do this we have to ALL get moving.
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