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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - losing babies
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losing babies
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Looby
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:21 am    Post subject: losing babies

Dear Guys
Had 5 healthy chicks almost 3wks old..female raising them solely..male being difficault Crying or Very sad
sadly,lost yet another last night due to it wondering to corner of nest ..female today seems disinterested now,chicks crops look empty and seem less respondant i fear they are all wanting to give up..seems a shame they got this far.
My questionnhalf of me is saying let nature takes its course and half is terrified to lose them ..should i intervene and t ry to hand raise them...should i bring them in to a small cage and reintroduce the father to see if he takes over?...i really dont know what to do for the best..
ANY advice would be greatly appreciated
Thankyou in advance
x
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Peter
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:18 am    Post subject:

Looby,
I'm afraid there is nothing much to do. When a chick is ill, it has less energy to beg for food. So, as long as the chick doesn't scream, the mother has no trigger to bring up food from the crop.
In an advanced stage, the mother will push the chick to the corner of the nestbox or even bury it alive.

Possible causes of the illness are bacteria, yeast/fungus or flagellates in the crop and intestines. I have found that a broad variation of vegetables and some other phytonutrients in plants can prevent these disorders.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject:

I have to agree with Peter....

Quote:
I'm afraid there is nothing much to do.


You answer your own question(s)

Quote:
should i bring them in to a small cage and reintroduce the father to see if he takes over?...


It is times like these when one has nothing to loose

Give it a go, it may not save the chick, but the reaction and act of the male and chick together...will he feed at all?...its all a learning experiance.

And
Quote:
should i intervene and t ry to hand raise them

Ever hand raised before.? good time to learn trial...

But keep in mind Peters advice, chance are very high u will loose it anyway.
Quote:
I have found that a broad variation of vegetables and some other phytonutrients in plants can prevent these disorders.


And a high protein/iron content.

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Looby
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject:

thankyou Peter and Steptoe for your answers...
I have tried to add additional vegatables and fruits incase there had been a particular favourite to which was miss this week( read it in a post somewhere) I dont think the chicks will stand much of a chance if hand reared as this wk-fine, but nxt wk back at work wall however i'll check tomorrow to see how th ey are and will probably try to get dad a try..
such a blow..but life is full of 'em at times..
Thanks again guys!
p.s
Where's this book Kaka-riki and yourself should be writing???????? Wink
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
I have tried to add additional vegatables and fruits incase there had been a particular favourite to which was miss this week


The 'trick' is consistant veg fruit protien starting before the breeding season. right thru till the chicks are weaned, and beyond

I think is is right, as a general rule of thumb, If you get around 70% of eggs to weaning stage you are doig very well..even as an expericaned breeder..
So if u have 8 eggs, 6 hatch 75% loose one chick 62%
Because we are dealing with low numbers 62% is still good

If say kakariki laid 20 eggs (or take over a total of several batches)
16 hatch, loose 2 chicks thats 70%

I would be interested in others opinion on the above comment....???

I remeber reading a study on kakariki survial in the wild... From memory it was only about 30 or 40%... and this is on a protected island no rats etc.

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wyndara
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject:

Steps i think your percentages are very close to the mark. what i will add is the changes in clutches over the last 30 odd years my late father and i experienced. It was common place in the 70s for dads red crown kaks to lay 10 to 13 fertile eggs, hatch and rear to fledging with no problems . He would only lose the odd bird. this trend continued for many years with no problems. Then approx in the early 90s mutations turned up, first cinnamon then pied. From this time on things took a turn for the worst, clutch sizes dropped fertility dropped . This did not happen over night but you could see things were changing in the amount of chicks on the perch. All of the blood lines had become far too close with little hope of getting new wild blood because of our strict importation laws. In the last few years things have changed a little, the Black eyed clear mutation turned up in Australia? One of the best things to come out of this mutation is that its not related in any way to the blood lines already here. Puting this yellow bird to our blood lines has resulted in more eggs higher fertility and better young. I would think Europe is suffering the same fate with little chance of new blood lines.
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Looby
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:41 am    Post subject:

given all that food for thought, i am very lucky to have any survive at all given my own circumstances ...and and grateful Wink i will indeed,Steps, let nature take its course even if it is heart wrenching..and should she come into lay will eventually remove eggs..

new blood is definately hard in the uk especially as most will probably be mutation and generally have a line or two which are inbred..I surely don't know of any truely committed breeder who flies in new pure bloods. sadly u can never guarantee they'll be no defects.

I'll continue to check my hubby gives ALL veg and fruit available when am not there to ensure they get all they expected Laughing

thanks x
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:37 am    Post subject:

wyndara:

I have heard of the same stories in NZ from some of the very old kakariki breeders.
Getting 5 to 8 the occassional 9 or 10 has always made me feel something is wrong.

Then start getting them into a discussion....listening to WHAT they say..
Every case turns out most of their pairs would give between 5 to 9 eggs, and they would have had only 1 or maybe 2 pairs that would throw 10 to 13 eggs consistant...with a similar fledgling %
Then when one goes back to old and resent documentation with wild birds, again these still throw in most cases 5 to 8 eggs.
I have gone from thinking along what you describe, to more of....yes kakariki can thru 10 to 13, this i not normal, and when listening to these old breeders close, again not normal, but rather a 'slight' exaggeration/bragging rights.....which over the years , like many things abour kakariki has turned the norm into old wives tales, urban myths

I have seen a kakariki pair raise 9 or 10 chicks..it can happen.
None of the parents did and nor did any of the chicks.
They where not mutations and I do not believe mutations has anything to do with it.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:33 pm    Post subject:

Hi Looby,

couple of comments here.

Trying to handfeed the chicks and leaving them at nest will do no harm. If you don't have a pet shop available where you can buy handfeeding formula, you could try with baby cereal formula mixed with a few greens, or one of these "jars" of chicke or meat that are prepared for babies.

You fill the crops 3x/day and see the result. Maybe the parents have lost interest and you save the clutch.

Personally I don't handfeed anymore because the birds are at a 20min drive from where I live, and handfeeding them at home is a chore, and when I loose a chick it hits me hard, so I just let them be.
If I had the aviaries at home I would try helping them up filling up the crops with formula in an attempt to encourage the parents.

If the parents have never given me problems before be it kakariki or cockatiels, and they stop feeding a chick... I take it the chick could have a problem, so I let nature act.
(Same as Steptoe and Peter say)

Regarding blood-lines, etc... if you read some of the old posts by Peter, Peterlimburg, etc... 4-5 years ago when they started breeding, they had a hard time finding decent birds. Apart from hybridisation signs, feather quality etc... the stock available wasn't very good.

They had to buy the best of what was available and slowly but firmly, keep on breeding and selecting.

The result is very nice, I can tell you. At least Peter Wouters' birds are simply great.
I wish I could take a look at Rob's and Peter Wauben's birds too, because they must be very nice as well.

What I mean is... that some of us could sit back and complain, or follow their example and starting from "mediocre" birds, improve our flock to the best of our ability.
It's slow, and especially in the beginning progress is slow, and you make mistakes buying birds, etc... but long term pays off.

I encourage you to keep up the good attitude and wait for better results in future clutches.
Blows indeed happen, but with your attitude you'll have far many more times of enjoyment.

Good luck!

Pablo

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject:

Btw..

Wyndara and Steps, really really nice info about former experiences.

Quote:
over the last 30 odd years


This is what I call persistance and continuity.
It must be nice to have such extensive background.

By the way.... recently read at a cockatiel forum about the 25% rule. It says of out of a given pair, and after a number of clutches, the chicks are:
-25% worse than the parents
-50% as good
-25% better
Have you experienced this as well or maybe it's just a myth?

I found it funny, and maybe a bit optimistic, but I don't have enough experience to back this up.

Cheers / Pablo

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wyndara
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject:

Steps I can say for certain these large clutches were no myth as i saw them with my own eyes. It always amazed me how the hens could incubate all those eggs, when you looked into the boxes there was always three or four eggs she could not posably cover but they did hatch. they had a very good rotation system. My father would feed huge amounts of sprouted seed morning and night and green feed daily, that was basicly all he fed to them. Compared to what we feed today it seems very basic. rest assured he bred hundreds and hundreds of kakarikis in his retirement years. I will try and find some of his breeding records , they make for interesting reading. Pablo I have kept and bred kakas for nearly 20years with only one short time with out them.It was only short because i soon realized how dull lifless and boring my avairies had become without them. As long as i have birds there will always be plenty of kakas in my avairies!!!
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Looby
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject:

thumb smiles around guys! x
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject:

Looby,

what has finally happened with the clutch? Have you been lucky?

Wyndara,

Quote:
dull lifless and boring my avairies had become without them.

Yes, they are very special.

I always say they remind me of some sort of hybrid between a lorikeet and a kea in small version. I'm especially enjoying the flock of 15 birds that I have maturing or resting from breeding. They socialize a lot more with me than when they were sitting in aviaries in individual pairs, and their interaction is very funny to see.

Cheers / Pablo

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Looby
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:18 am    Post subject:

Hi Pabloc, the clutch tho only 4 remaining are sos far so good,still mom feeding..
although they are still all fluff they are all different mottled shades..quite interesting actually, one is extremely dark and one is almost white?? i shall be interested to see how they feather up..lets hope they make it Wink
Thanks for asking
I;m hoping to achieve the same fun avairy to spend hours in as you described yourself!
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Steps I can say for certain these large clutches were no myth as i saw them with my own eyes.


Quote:
Then start getting them into a discussion....listening to WHAT they say..
Every case turns out most of their pairs would give between 5 to 9 eggs, and they would have had only 1 or maybe 2 pairs that would throw 10 to 13 eggs consistant

Im not saying it is a myth, Im saying a small minority do it, it is not the norm.

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