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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Par-Blue and Red Mutations Exist!!!
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Par-Blue and Red Mutations Exist!!!
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Peter
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Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Par-Blue and Red Mutations Exist!!!

I've just got some pictures of a par-blue and red mutation. I wait for a permission to publish these in the gallery.

Peter
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Peter
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Posts: 599

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:51 am    Post subject:

Have also added the pictures to the mutations gallery.
The mutations are both bred in Australia. The par blue was produced by pairing a mottled pied (yellow) mutation to a normal hen. About the red one the owner was not sure.
A mottled pied is born as a normal. After the first moult the colour changes to full yellow.
It seems that both blue and red are working in similar ways.

Peter



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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:33 am    Post subject:

Great stuff...
Im not up on mutations, not done in NZ, I gather these major steps?
If so I think we should have as a news item on the front page.
The Aussie breeder, (is that Greg Holmes) does he want to be named at this stage as a front page news item?

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Allen
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Joined: Oct 14, 2004
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject:

Great pictures and worthy of a headline or two.

Pity the birds are in Australia as there is no legal way of getting the mutations out to the rest of the world. The blue mutation is a bit dissapointing but perhaps after a couple of years of selective breeding it will look better. The red is very exciting.

More colours will increase the popularity of kakarikis so I am always a supporter of new colour mutations, just not hybrids.
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Kaka-riki
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Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:19 pm    Post subject:

Hi All,
The pictures posted by Peter our from our collection. He provided us with
the link to find this site. We have been breeding Kakariki here in Australia
for the past 5 years and produced the red mutation from our own birds.
The Par blue was recently purchased from another breeder who doesnt specialise in Kakariki and therefore did not provide the correct diet. We have rectified this small problem and would hope the feather problems can be fixed after the first moult. The red mutation has produced 3 young
to date and all show varying amounts of red to the body. I will update the
site with some additional pics soon.

Regards Greg.
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bisu777
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Joined: May 26, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:24 am    Post subject:

Hi Greg!
Is there an intensification of the red colour on the upper side of the tail feathers? Can´t tell by looking at the picture.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:11 pm    Post subject:

This also something to do with the red mutation?
http://www.kakariki.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=765#765

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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 3:24 pm    Post subject:

We have produced young birds that have varying amounts of red in the tail feathers. One young cock bird has a complete red tail with small areas
of red showing through on the body as well. We are waiting on the first moult for these birds to see how much red is retained.
It is our hope to keep the red on the body in a similar pattern to the cock
bird in the picture. Once we have out crossed the young birds to new stock we will have a clear picture of how this mutation is working. The original hen does not show any colour but that is not to say she is not a split so more work is still required to establish genetic inheritance. I will keep this post updated on the progress.
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Peter
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Posts: 599

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:41 am    Post subject:

Important concerning the par-blue is the naming. Who gave this name and why? In the world of parrots a par-blue gene is a mutation of a blue gene. This means there must be at least one other blue type somewhere.

Peter
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Kaka-riki
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Posts: 363

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:38 pm    Post subject:

Peter,
As I have previously stated this bird was not bred in our aviaries and as such I have limited knowledge as to it's genetic inheritance or whether it
is the only "blue" type mutation produced thus far. That said, we have continued to describe this bird as a "par blue" as I am not really sure how
else you would describe it in laymans terms. It is not a true blue and therefore can not be classed as such.
The other concern is that it has been suggested that there is not a true Lutino in Kakariki either. A leading genetics expert has visited Europe in recent times and believes the bird described as Lutino could in fact be a fallow mutation. If that is the case the possiblities of producing a true line of blue mutations would seem a long way off.
We are open to all suggestions and have loosely named the bird a "par blue" until it can be properly identified. Because not all breeders are interested in genetics we have decided that is the easiest way in the short term. We have recently completed a 5 page article on our Kakariki for an
upcoming issue in one of Australia's bird magazines and the editors wanted to use a name that everyone could identify. We have clarified in that article that this mutation is awaiting correct classification.
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Peter
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Posts: 599

PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:47 am    Post subject:

OK. Seems clear to me

Kaka-riki wrote:

The other concern is that it has been suggested that there is not a true Lutino in Kakariki either. A leading genetics expert has visited Europe in recent times and believes the bird described as Lutino could in fact be a fallow mutation. If that is the case the possiblities of producing a true line of blue mutations would seem a long way off.


One of the members (http://www.kakariki.nl/eindex.htm) breeds combo's of 1 gene lutino and 1 gene Fallow. The result is intermediar (see below). So, you can say they are alleles and therefore it's correct that the lutino is a mutation of a Fallow( or the other way around).
Also important is the inheritance of the Lutino. It's recessif and not sex-linked like some people believe.
But if it's a mutation of a Fallow, why can it not be a real Lutino? I can't see the link with your blue bird. duno

Peter

Admin:
Pic edited to save Bandwidth, speed page load for those on 56k modems, not distort pages, and lost links in the future



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Kaka-riki
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject:

We dont have a strong knowledge in genetics and as such have worked closely here in Australia with a world renowned genetics expert. We are guided by his opinions and will continue to do so.
My refference to the lack of a Lutino mutation is based on a theory that
a Lutino should hasten the likelyhood of producing the blue mutation. If in fact there is no true Lutino it would be difficult to imagine a blue mutation
is being bred anywhere in the world.
So, to summarize, perhaps we will call our bird a freak of nature in the mean time
We are not trying to change the world but merely enjoying a hobby. angel

Here in Australia, the Kakariki has, for many years been bred by some breeders purely for the dollars they have made from the mutations.
Once they have bred these birds to the point they can not lay anymore they sell up and move on to the next mutation. To this end we have seen red rump parrots and Indian Ringnecks virtually worthless now in this country.
When we started in Kakariki everyone laughed at us and said we were wasting time. But, we are in a very lucky situation where we do not rely on selling the birds in order to survive. So, we invested much money in building good breeding stocks and have worked hard in the past 5 years
working on nutrition and correct sizing in our birds.
Now that we are seeing the fruits of our hard work with some new mutations, we have many people here in Australia who again attack our work and claim our birds only show new colours due to incorrect diet etc. When we bred more young red suffused birds it upset them again. Now, they claim the blue mutation is an aquired colour and created through poor diet. As we did not breed this bird they may be right. But, our vet has performed an internal inspection and confirmed the bird can breed. His sister also shows some signs of being different but we dont want to tell everyone this is the "blue" mutation everyone is waiting for until we can produce more birds.
I can confirm that this bird was bred from the yellow mutation we have here in Australia called Mottled Pied. I believe this mutation should be able to produce "blue" birds in the same way as it does the yellows. I base this theory on the fact the blue is already in the wild colour bird. The blue also shows some black feathering in a similar way to the mottled pied yellow.
I will speak to admin and try and put some pics of these yellows in the album. I have tried several times but they wont download.
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kakariki
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:38 am    Post subject:

picture[/img]


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kakariki
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 8:15 am    Post subject:

Hello there,
I had some holidays in Turkey so I missed the discussion of the red and blue mutation. I like to add some to this discussion. I had already contact with Greg in februari about the new? mutations. I also have a red all over the body coloured bird. I am not confinced if it is a mutation. Normally the red mutations in parakeets is the opaline mutation and is sexlinked. The colour can inmediately be seen after the birds leave their nests. I bought 2 birds brother and sister from a hobbyist who bought them from a breeder. They were yellow but became red coloured after a few years. The sister lost their red colour already and I am waiting for the male to turn to yellow again after the moult. All breeders I have spoken to think it is a feeding or medical problem. I have to wait to find out.
In Holland are birds who show some red at the beak, socks and center of the tailfeathers. This is genetic cause I bred a lot of these birds but was unable to intensify the red. I think this has someting to do about the subspecies it originally was. Some wildcoloured birds also show purple colours in the tailfeathers. I have to see Photo's of the offspring of Gregs red bird to believe if it is a new mutation.
The blue bird is something else. Gregs mutation is the first bird who shows less psitacine (psitacine is the yellow and red colour of a parakeet). All present mutations are reductions or other apearences of the melanine (the dark "blue" colour) When all the psittacine is gone you have a blue bird with white forehead and cheeks. This colour has nothing to do with the lutino mutation. Lutino is a loss of melanine what is the dark (blue) colour of parakeets. Only when you want to breed a albino (white) bird you need a true blue and a true lutino bird. When you combine these birds there will be a total loss of melanine and psitacine and the albino is a fact.
When you combine gregs blue bird with my lutino a very light yellow allmost white bird will appear with a light red forehead.
But never the less, these birds give something to think and discuss about.
Look at the next site to learn all about parakeet mutations and inheretance http://www.euronet.nl/users/dwjgh/
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Peter
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Joined: Oct 15, 2004
Posts: 599

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:04 am    Post subject:

kakariki wrote:
.
Some wildcoloured birds also show purple colours in the tailfeathers.


I wonder if it also shows itself in the pure stocks of the New Zealand members.

Peter
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