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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - Kakariki nestling
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Kakariki nestling

 
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pabloc
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Kakariki nestling

Hi,

a Spanish colleague has found a bird that is unusually dark in a kakariki nest.
He doesn't know if it could be a normal bird slightly darker, or maybe a mutation.

I thought it would be interesting to post here the pics.

Remarks and opinions are w3c!

Regards / Pablo



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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject:

It is difficult to tell from these pics
Our wilds do vary slightly in depth of the green, it is the lighter ones that we notice....
I have often thought abstactly that our Birds in NZ do tend to be a little darker than those over seas with higher mutation 'content'.

No I do not think it is a darker mutation, but the only way to tell is breed off and see what comes out consistanly.

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:55 am    Post subject:

Steps,

I'm not so familiar with kakariki mutations, but in cockatiels mutations apparently affect the appearance of the bird even if they are simply split (carrier).

For instance split whiteface cockatiel will usually have broad white line bordering the back of the yellow mask. Additionally the mask and cheeks are usually less intense and the cheekpatch smaller.
Split pied birds are usually lighter (melanin less oxidized). Split pale-fallow cockatiels are usually darker (better melanin oxidation), and split bronze-fallow birds seem to have a stronger yellow suffusion (yellow background color).

In European kakariki strains pied is usually present, thus leading to possible confusion with mutations.
And I would not be surprised that we are already breeding certain mutations unknowingly. As goldcheck kakariki are so appreciated, and you need to pair 2 yellow birds to avoid birds with green patches, I would not be surprised we are already breeding certain 'subtle' mutations, somewhere.
Also, for instance some dominant mutations in their SF form barely differ from the wildcolor form.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers / Pablo

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Peter
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject:

pabloc wrote:
And I would not be surprised that we are already breeding certain mutations unknowingly. As goldcheck kakariki are so appreciated, and you need to pair 2 yellow birds to avoid birds with green patches, I would not be surprised we are already breeding certain 'subtle' mutations, somewhere.
Also, for instance some dominant mutations in their SF form barely differ from the wildcolor form.


A Belgian breeder has strong indications that the Misty mutation excist in Kakariki. This is an incomplete dominant mutation. It means that there is a visual difference between SF and DF birds. SF birds display a slight lighter green. DF birds have an olive color and are very similar to a cinnamon, although slightly darker. I have seen pictures of the latter and at first glance it looks like a cinnamon.
He has started 3 test pairings. So I'm waiting for the results.

A SF Misty Budgie(left) compared to a normal(right)
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject:

OK looking at those budgies is a good example.....
If where our wild kakariki....the lighter on the left would be our norm.
The darker right, and not quite that much difference, would relate to our darker birds.

Notice on Pab's birds the darker edging to the feathers....it is that , that gives the impression the bird is darker....Espec if a bird is in normal condition, compared to one in top condition and the feathers are very floresent...the florence sort of over welms the darker edges and ond doesnt notice as much.

Quote:
DF birds have an olive color and are very similar to a cinnamon, although slightly darker. I have seen pictures of the latter and at first glance it looks like a cinnamon.


That comment I can also relate to...many a time I have though "is that a cinnamon mutation?" but when check against pics in the gallery...no..no were enough difference.

I do wonder if it could be something to do with conditioning, and/or season, if the bird is coming into mating season and stuff

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject:

Hi,

Peter, I'm a great fan of this vogelarena member (Frank Hummeling), he breeds swifts, and he keeps the misty mutation.
http://www.vogelarena.com/voliere/voliere_1000000667.html
Honestly I can barely tell the difference from a wildcolor swift.
And if I had those 2 budgies in front of me, I would think they are simple, plain, greens, one just darker than the other.

Also, a colleague told in the Spanish forum that in some parakeet species the Dark factor was only identified in it's double form.

I will try to take some pictures, but my GE camera is hopeless. If I don't manage to take decent pictures of the birds I'll have to buy another camera! Sad

My situation is, I breed the edged mutation in cockatiels.
I believe I would not tell the difference between some of my edged birds and a normal, plain grey cockatiel with poor oxidation.

I also have grey cockatiels that are quite dark, others are much lighter. One would tell some of my split pearl cockatiels are a mutation or something like that, as they are a different shade of grey. Also, some of my tiels have a much stronger yellow suffusion (psitacin), and it gives a different shade of color.

(I think maybe what you say about fluorescence, could be birds with more intense psitacine pigment)

With kakariki it becomes a bit more complicated to tell if a bird is a mutation or not, because as Peter rightly explains in his website we have 3 elements to take into account:
http://users.skynet.be/kakariki/The_3_elements_of_colour.htm
Cockatiels are simpler, as they do not have structural color, thus we only have variations in eumelanin, and psitacin, but they are tricky enough!

That's why I'm confused as hell as to what is an acceptable variation of the wildcolor phenotype, or an actual mutation :) signlol

I guess the only way to know is to keep some of those birds that are out of the average, let them moult, then make a test pairing.

I will ask my colleague for a full size picture.
He breeds insectivorous birds, and European wildlife (greenfinches, goldfinches,etc...) in very large aviaries so I believe he feeds a complete diet to kakariki also. Nevertheless I'll ask him about it.

Sorry about my confusing post signlol

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:09 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
(I think maybe what you say about fluorescence, could be birds with more intense psitacine pigment)


No we notice in our kings, crimsons and kakariki this changes thruogh out the yr...seasons AND we can change it dramatically with diet...increase vit c, protein, iron, apple cider vinegar, then throw in a few aromatics like manuka, mint, rosemary etc that they use to pull the oils out of.

One has a almost a 'glow in the dark' bird.

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