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Kakariki, Care, Breeding, Ecology, and Conservation :: View topic - captive bred kakariki surviving in the wild.
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captive bred kakariki surviving in the wild.
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bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:23 am    Post subject: captive bred kakariki surviving in the wild.

hi

on watching a recent documentary on a single colony of chimps which were isolated from their species in the kyambura gorge in africa i observered behavour which were detrimental to their survival and unique compaired with other apes behaivior.
these apes visited food site on an exact schedule ... they new when which trees ripened of the same variaty to the day and this had been passed on from generation to generation like mums baking!

now from what i've read kakariki eat a variaty of leaves, pettles and fruit ... now some of these leaves are meant to be important for killing off certain parasites they contain a natural insecticide called leptospermone, they also use this on their feathers for obvious reasons now along with the knowledge of ripening times of certain trees which i guess the young learn from basically just being with the colony you can probably guess why captive birds breed from a long line of captive bred birds could struggle....just food for thought!

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pabloc
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:23 am    Post subject:

Hi Bruce,

if you look at some old threads what some people suggest (Peter Wauben to be precise) is that a large aviary is installed first and the birds housed there for a period of time, then the door opened so the birds can go back to the "shelter" anytime.
Simply releasing the captive-bred birds isn't very efficient as you say, as those birds have been "spoiled".

Cheers / P.

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MountOwen
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:04 am    Post subject:

Very interesting stuff Bruce and I assume the conclusion from your write up is that any captive creature simply won't last long given its fredom. And off course we care so much that we are judges of this.
It is interesting that given anything new, and I'm talking about branches taken from native NZ tree's. Kakariki seem to have such a hunger and enthusiasm to check out new arrival into the aviary.
I do wonder if they'd very quickly find all the goodies given the the chance to wing around in a more natural environment. Interesting to know how birds released on offshore island manage to find their way arround the dinner table. I'm curious to know how well birds have adapted on Somes/ Matiu Island for example. And if they have flourished it may indicate they can adapt successfully. Given the chance. They are after all, energy packs and as the saying goes "if you want something done, you give it to a busy person"
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
i guess the young learn from basically just being with the colony you can probably guess why captive birds breed from a long line of captive bred birds could struggle....just food for thought!


Oh so how wrong... Going to be blunt here...
I consistantlt get sick a tired of the BS regarding captive birds, in particular parrots that is peddeled by the Conservation depts and beurocrats around the world, protecting their little empires and hyachies.
And what is worst, the so called scientists, being paid by these depts to 'research' It is compromal to the 'scientists ' who work for cigarette and cosmetic companies....
Why are Aussie crimson roseela such a threat to NZ kakariki, kea and other birds?
Why Did NZ Dept of Conservation spend a fortune culling out a population of lorries that breed and sprend very quick
Why are ring necks ans Alexandianes a problem in many countries (and will be in Christchurch if the DoC people down that way dont get off their lazy butts and do their job)...countries including Europe.
How have sulphur crested spread in the Wild so readlly, even thu used for target practice for decades, along with several other cocatoo specires?
Why Does DoC have a capitive breeding program for the orange kakariki?

Then talk to some old retired kakariki breeders in NZ....even kakariki raised on seed released in the wild in a suitable flock become established.

If you go back to old posts..I argue that pure breed kakariki like we have, we shouldnot be chopping the heads off (over 300 in the last 3 yrs) but rather release into unlikely places, like a park in the CDB, small urban bush reserves....see what happens....
but no
That would threaten our DoC deskjockeys who are control freaks protecting their little empires...it would totally make a mockery of the BS they have been peddling, totally based on assumption
(assume = Ass of U & me )

Doc can spend tax payer dollars 100s of 1000s with translocation excerises....a horrific collateral damage, unknown established flocks, incorrect balance of male to female ratio for best results
But they can have my captive kakariki, couple hundred a yr with current setup (easy idouble that) at cost estimated between $12 and $15...already in established flock and male/female ratio.

I have the highest regard for those DoC people who wear boots and get them dirty....what they think and say off the record is very close to private breeders and Ex DoC people ....
And Luis Ortiz-Catedral and his research.....
His orginal intention was to compare transloction and capitive breeding amonst other things in regard to kakariki.
He made huge inroads due to persistance to even get permission to capture out of the wild...that alone was ground breaking strides.
But when it came to captive release...brick wall...if it wasnt for the sad state of the orange kakariki and its surival depending on captive realese at the time, it would not have been included in his research....even that was extremely limitted.

Maybe one day 20/20 or some other doco /editorial news TV program will blast acros NZ TV screen in prime time showing endangered NZ birds, lizards, getting their heads chopped off, the buried in the back yard or thrown out in the trash...

Till then this travisty that goes back over 40yrs will continue around the world.

The real dumb part is IF DoC went down this route, proved it worked, (something we already know) it would once again be looked at as world leaders in conservation... real 'ground breaking ' direction for conservation.

Not would DoC only have vounteers to plant trees, it would have volunteers in back yards breeding flocks of birds, insect, lizards, snails, worms......
The awherenes and education in communties to conservation a huge marketing / propaganda coup.....and at little cost...

But we are dealing with little beurocrats in little offices...such concepts are beyond their comprehension.

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bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:08 pm    Post subject:

sorry feel like ive hit a sore spot...
key word again being struggle not fail ... the main point is that if the wilder birds and the captive birds are studdied upon release and compared...we teach some animals in captivity the traits they need to survive in the wild in many cases and it has worked ... here in england we have managed to bring tens of birds bk from extinction from the barn owl to the red kite even smaller bird ... where on the other hand a lot off birds are dissappearing ... i do know that the successful reintroductions have only succeeded by having the slightest little changes e.g the barn owl was sucsessful becouse farmers agreed to let thair field boundries re-grow at the same time allowing the owls to manage the rodent problem which the farmers had. mainly its about working together we have a nation wide survay where the puplic are asked to phone in everytime they here a cuckoo as these are declining enabling the conservationist to monitor their spead across the country.
we have a program called sring watch which obviously changes its name thru the seasons signlol its bin a great help in reinforming the public on what is happening to our native birds so yes steps maybe people in NZ should see whats happening your native endangered species ... nothing gets them behind the desk moving faster than this . an indipendand video maybe of a collection of NZ breeders having to commit these culls posted on youtube would also capture the interest of other bird lovers around the world... we see docs about cruelty and bad conditions for animals in third world countries all the time maybe showing it happening in a first world courtry might get the doc work more with breeders.
again sorry for sticking my nose where it shouldn't be but im kind of a outspoken guy

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bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject:

just thought about something steptoe said last year to me and that was observation there is obviously something being missed or these re-introductions would be more sucsessful ... please search on the internet about a colony of parrots which have astablished in their thousands in the south of england against all the odds just from birds which have ascaped its amazing as we have no native parrot species there are vids on youtube i believe. like i say kakariki are hardy birds which adapt so whats going wrong can everyone give me their views.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
again sorry for sticking my nose where it shouldn't be but im kind of a outspoken guy

1st the important stuff....
I see absolutly no grounds for an applogy for anything...
You brought up a subject, something that is very dear to my and a hand ful of others....
What you do is give us an excuse to vent and share again....and thats good.
And as far as being out spoken...well Im out spoken and one of the most un diplomatic people around...even in real life.
Idont have a problem with that either.

Quote:
please search on the internet about a colony of parrots which have astablished in their thousands in the south of england against all the odds

These I belive are African ring necks from memory, and are a down right pest and considerable concern to the local enviroment....I meantioned this in previous post...and they are a pest in many other countries to.

Quote:
like i say kakariki are hardy birds which adapt so whats going wrong can everyone give me their views.

I covered that in previous post, basically bearocratic BS..and no accountabily of the Dept to anyone...(the only Gov. dept in NZ that isnt)
The thru out the westminster rules when DoC was created.

We have a major rodent problem (NZ doesnt have any native mammal except a little bat)...Back in the 80s we had a cyclone, and around this time a huge decline in weka (a ground bird sort of like a hen thats a mini emu)....I do not know if it was because of the cyclone...but up to then, go hunting or tramping in the bush, weka where so common, put something shiney down...it was gone...even around the campfire at night...gone.
Now weka numbers are non existant damn near everywhere..
Weka also take on small rodents and kill them, about the only natural peditor in the bush.
Since the weka disappeared most of the numbers of other native birds decreseed and rat etc became a greater problem.
Now there is an Ex DoC guy down Christchurch way...real good at breeding weka, like I am with kakatiki.....But he is looking at it as a multi million dollar enrteprise....weka free range meat to china...and local market....but also supply weka to DoC in flocks for release.

DoC says no, and cant put any viable reason forward to justify such a policy....and dont need to because they are a law unto their own.

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bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:33 am    Post subject:

am i right in thinking breeders in NZ stick two fingers up to doc and release birds anyway or do they stick to doc methods ..... if so neither way is working so the problem is out there in the wild .... rats , stoats call it watever some species are being more sucsessful than the kakariki... but have the same problems . why not the kakariki its alot more hardy... i heard a batch of 3 chicks fledged sucsessfully in a town in NZ in 2010 showing their ability to adapt .... biggest bureaucrats in in the uk lost their right to hunt foxes one the lower class victories just becouse animal lovers kicked off.. its up to your citizens to say no more ... but how can they do that if they dont know ...that down to you breeders in NZ to pass the word and let people see whats happening ..... PEOPLE POWER makes the whole world work without it the bureaucrats are nothing.
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:04 am    Post subject:

Quote:
am i right in thinking breeders in NZ stick two fingers up to doc and release birds anyway or do they stick to doc methods ..... if so neither way is working so the problem is out there in the wild


Bottom line is there is no market in NZ for kakariki...yes breeders have released...yes these flocks have remained in small pockets....But these flocks , isolated pockets, either eventually disappear, or more often remain small pockets as a ba;ance is reached between breeding and peditors.
They have not in most cases been released as breeding pairs and establisged flocks with the social structure and defense warning mechanisims, and pecking orders.
Many of these releases are declaired by DoC as , 'migrated from and island' in their 'infinate wisdom' of prevailing winds and ditances kakariki move....or put more simply, head in the sand and look the other way, while taking 'credit' for things that they didnt do.

I know of a couple flocks that have existed since pre 1920s ..in small isolate patches of bush....in spite of a huge population of staot rat and possum....in the 1920s these where several very large flocks.

Quote:
its up to your citizens to say no more ... but how can they do that if they dont know ...that down to you breeders in NZ to pass the word and let people see whats happening


Bottom line, in NZ one would be lucky to have more than a handful of kakariki breeders.....most over the yrs have been banging their head against a brick wall, and given up moved onto African greys and exotic birds....
away since the 1960....ask people in the street.. "what is a kakariki?" 97%one will get ..."thats green in maori " or "dont know" or "its a coastal freighter name"
And bottom line, kiwis are an extemely apathetic bunch.
People power is about numbers...
Dont think NZ breeders have been sitting on their backsides for 40 yrs either...

Bit of reading...
http://www.kakariki.net/ftopicp-1990.html#1990

There are several threads, discussions along this line.

DoC has a history of "not having budget" for many species.....untill they cock up big time...like the orange kakariki, which they actively created their near actual extinction....Then they have millions to 'invest' play hero.
When some many species if the knowledge and expertise in the private sector was used...usually as volunteer...these species would not happen.
In the early days of the orange kakariki program, DoC took no notice of the experiance and advice of private breeders...and damn near screwed the species right up...and spent huge budgets, and still are when it could all have been done thru private breeders....Even now the producyion of flocks for release are embrassingly tiny...20 here 20 there over 7 or yrs.
With private breeder expertese these numbers would now be at least over 1000 plus
If a private breeder applys for a permit for most NZ species, part of the document states that any eggs /chicks/off spring must be destoried...even species severally endangered like the orange.

There are more kakariki in the rest of the world than the captive and wild population in NZ
Kakariki used to be one of the most commn birds in NZ...like sparrows and thrushes
Kakariki where the only birds to be kept as pets by Maori and early settlers.
Now it is iilegal to keep a NZ bird as a pet...to tame etc.

The whole issue goes far beyond just kakariki....it applies to ALL of new Zealands birds replities animals.

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bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:39 am    Post subject:

good read sounds to me like docs how health and safety has got in the uk over parranoid ... scared of any genetic defects from dodgy breeders getting out into the wild ... yes this would be bad but easily avoided if they work with the right people ... this is why the permits maybe are a good thing... i see your problem now not enought good breeders the bad ones are no good for conservation after all its survival of the fittest ... no need for poor stocks .
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:17 am    Post subject:

Quote:
scared of any genetic defects from dodgy breeders getting out into the wild

yep u hit on another issue
DoC (and its predesesor Wild life Dept under internal affairs) had a policy of grandfathing out hybrids...that goes back to the 50s as far as I can gather.
I have the logs documents of a permit inspector for kararikii covering late 60s thru to 80s. IF the grandfathering policy worked wevwould no longer have any hybrids in captivity....
And when I 1st started breeding seriously yrs ago, damn near most of the captive stock in capitivity, be it private or zoos etc was hybrid.
Which means damn near most of the illegal and legal releases by DoC have been hybrid....and some of the release by DoCfor captive birds, they were told they are hybrid stock, and still realesed them.

Grandfathering ...load crap.. in my books a hybrid is put down (unless used for demonsation /example purposes)...end of story.

So on one Hand will use the hybrid arguement to prevent private release, yet promote hybrid grandfathring, but not monitor it....but refuses to supply and issue permits to capture new wild stock, for breeders to breed with.

I note here, since I put this web site up, and the profile it has, the campain about hybrids in captivity, awhereness it has created, hybrids all but do not exist anymore in captive kakariki in NZ. And with a lot of support from a few key NZ members here, combining breeding programs of good stock, and moving that in large numbers out to other and new breeders.

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tailofdog
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Australian Kak Survived 1 month in the bush

My kak escaped for one month and survived in the bush for 1 month.
He came by the house a couple of times looking fat and sassy.
After one month he flew into my shed and landed on a kak aviary.
He is back home minus his tail feathers. This might be what brought him to come back,
The other thing is that in 1 month he has matured greatly and is a very vibrant bird. Applause
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Freddie
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject:

Quote:
He is back home minus his tail feathers

He probably had a close call with a predator of some kind - just lost his tailfeathers.
Kaks spend a lot of time on the ground so they are vulnerable.
Maybe thats one of many things that makes it tough 4 them to survive in the wild.
If u allow sensitive/specialized/island spp. etc, to have enough time to adapt to a new situation, and so "nature" can cull out some (over several generations) - the fittest individuals will pas on good genes/behaviour.
(and at the same time reduce the numbers of invasive/expandive spp)
Then I believe they can survive
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Steptoe
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:56 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Maybe thats one of many things that makes it tough 4 them to survive in the wild.

And this is where it is important to release established flocks ......they have the alpha male, no one does anything without his permission, and the makes that stand gaard , warning valls etc.

Quote:
If u allow sensitive/specialized/island spp. etc, to have enough time to adapt to a new situation, and so "nature" can cull out some (over several generations) - the fittest individuals will pas on good genes/behaviour.


Basically that is th same as sending trained and untrained troops into battle..the seasone troops survive better, those that pck up the survival tips faster become seasoned quick.

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bruce
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:56 am    Post subject:

yes it's the same with meerkats their social structure is very important to how they survive warning calls and experience of the alpha male when to move when not move for e.g .
basically an alpha male with experience would have the ability to keep its flock in relatively save conditions ... whereas a inexperienced maybe younger alpha male will not only struggle to keep its flock safe but also struggle to keeping his role from younger up comming males.

i just found an egg broke in nestbox shell still there only 1 egg left as they only recently started laying .. hens still sitting single egg .... ive read some threads and im still not sure what to do as its still early .... i have a pair who can foster but dont want to go there yet ... if it were calcium wouldnt they have eaten the shell??? any ideas anyone?

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